BradWallace Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 A few weeks ago I polished a 2004 Tundra Double cab using a Dewalt polisher @ 1000RPM, foam pad, Norton Liquid Ice... Today, I went to coin-op car wash for the first time to wash off weeks of road salt. The sun was out, 50 degree day... And yes I have a BUTT LOAD of swirl marks. I used LED lighting when polishing in garage, but the sunlight brought them out... Will the Adams 2-step solve this? I have 2 more black vehicles to polish... I thought I had this down... but do not... Thanks in Advance.. Brad Wallace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Beemer Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 The short answer is "Yes" - Adam's two-step polish system is designed to get rid of swirl marks. It is a lot of work and I don't know anything about your particular polisher but that's what most of us do on a regular basis. Remove swirls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Team Adam's Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 As Beemer said, the simple answer - yes - our 2 step system with a DA would knock out swirl marks, thats what its designed to do, but I'd need more info on the paint condition and your familiarity with the rotary you're using to make a solid recommendation you proceed with our products on the tool you currently use. A few weeks ago I polished a 2004 Tundra Double cab using a Dewalt polisher @ 1000RPM, foam pad, Norton Liquid Ice... Are you familiar/comfortable working with a rotary polisher? Any reason you're using rotary over a DA to knock down swirls? For most people thats like using a backhoe to plant a couple of daises. Swirls rarely require the power of a rotary unless they're really severe. As for the foam pad - any specifics on that? Brand? Color? SIze? Not familiar with the Norton line outside of the fact its a body shop line, but a quick search only showed compound and extra cut compound. Either of those, combined with a rotary, and virtually any foam pad is going to be a pretty heavy cutting combo. What you are likely seeing isn't swirls but holograms introduced by that combo. I used LED lighting when polishing in garage, but the sunlight brought them out... The likely reality is they were always there, holograms are usually not easily spotted without LOTS of light... a focused LED might not have shown you the full story. Swirls are usually easy to spot in specific areas with a spotlight though. Will the Adams 2-step solve this? I have 2 more black vehicles to polish... I thought I had this down... but do not... Thanks in Advance.. Yes, assuming you adjust technique and possibly application method (tool) to suit the objective. Our system can be used via rotary, but for knocking down swirls, especially if you're not super familiar with the process, a DA or RO polisher is going to be a much better choice. spx1000 and Junior 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 BradWallace Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 They are holograms, not swirls. The PAD: norton liquid ice form 6 or 7 inch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Team Adam's Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 They are holograms, not swirls. The PAD: norton liquid ice form 6 or 7 inch... If thats the case its not just a product choice, but a technique issue - have you used a rotary for paint correction in the past? Ricky Bobby 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 BradWallace Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) NO - 1st time... 55 years old... Edited March 6, 2015 by BradWallace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ricky Bobby Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) ^^^Bingo, rotary requires much more skill to finish defect free than say a DA polisher. Holograms and hazing are from poor skill of using the rotary, or as body shop guys call it "buffing". What you do with a rotary is buffing, what you do with a DA is polishing. Two completely different animals. I don't ever have a need to use a rotary unless I'm doing heavy paint removal on defects and/or working on RIDS. Not necessary with the advances in DA polishing. You'll be correcting this for a while I believe... EDIT: Just saw you never used a machine before. Rotary was an extremely poor choice to start to say the least. Edited March 6, 2015 by Ricky Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Team Adam's Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 ^^^ Jason is correct. For more info on the subject check out this video: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mauff12 Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Sorry for the really bad pics, but this is what i have done with a DA and some Adams paint correcting polish tonight (the first step in the two step process) on a very swirled tailgate off a black 2011 Silverado. Yes a tailgate. Truck wont fit in the garage, and i got impatient waiting on the weather, so i dropped the gate and brought it in. This was my first time using any kind of machine polisher and only a couple of passes. Hope you can tell the difference, and maybe it will help in this dicussion. Also, the people that work at Adams are top notch, and i have been nothing but impressed with every product i've been able to try since my first purcase a couple months ago. Before After Edited March 7, 2015 by Mauff12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dan@Adams Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Wanted to show a few more results that are possible with the two-step polishing system and the Flex polisher. This truck was my dad's daily driver work truck for 11 years before I bought it off of him in late 2013. He only ever washed it with a hose, a sponge, and a bucket of dirty water, which caused severe swirl marks all over the entire truck. He never used soap because he was always taught that soap strips off the wax, and he still won't listen to me that the proper soap will not do that. Anyway, here are some before and after pictures: The whole truck looked like this: Front passenger fender before, notice how hazy the reflection of the two 500w halogen spotlights look and all of the scratches around that area: Front passenger fender after just one pass of the orange Paint Correcting Polish until it flashed and was ready to wipe off. The finish got even better as I continued on with the Paint Finishing Polish: Corrected clear coat on the left side of this picture of the fiberglass bed lid, uncorrected on the right. You can see a very apparent line from the reflection of the sun where I stopped polishing for demonstration purposes for my dad: Edited March 7, 2015 by psu goat spx1000 and Beemer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 mdolandese Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Looks great compared to what it was. Keep working on it and it will look perfect. Good job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 BradWallace Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 This is not as bad as it sounds... The truck looks Great... In the sunlight a few holograms appear... I have heard from several pros: "anyone who claims they have perfect results when polishing Black is Full Of It"... I do not claim to be better than anyone on this form, buy like everyone else... ENJOY the task, and the results bring pleasure... Im doing fine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 PDC Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Hi Brad - welcome to the forum. You are gonna have the paint on that truck looking 'paint-booth-wet' in no time. You did many things right here: Norton Ice is a very highly regarded, commercial product that you will see in body shops. Same goes for the Dewalt Rotary - commercial grade body-shop tool. You didn't do anything wrong by identifying and gravitating toward the professional-grade products. Hey, if the full time pros at the local body shop use it, it makes total sense to say 'this myst be the stuff to use.' You also obviously spent a TON of time rasslin' that heavy torque monster rotary around a full size pickup WITH a flourescent light. That means you are really into this and made a substantial investment of hours, sweat, and probably a sore back the next day. The Rotary polisher is a bear. I have a neighbor who is an artist with thse things. I offered to help him detail his Black Escalade a few summers ago and watched him gingerly 'finesse' the paint with this monster rotary. The paint on that escalade looked spray-booth-wet when he was done. He used the 3M Light Cut Compound, Swirl Remover, and Ultra-Fina with the color-matched 3-M Pads. He then 'coached' me through my own vehicle with the rotary one panel at a time. It takes hours and hours of practice to get it right and one little hiccup can be disasterous. I offered to detail my folks Cadillac after getting my own rotary, pads and polisher. All went well til I got to the rear plastic bumper. I burned thru the paint and ended up treating my folks to an all-expense paid trip to the dealership body shop for a strip and re-spray of the bumper. The manager was SO cool about it. He knew how bad I felt and said 'there isn't one tech in this shop who hasn't done the exact same thing at least once if not twice.' He said any time a car commes in for a full re-paint, they assign the 2 newest body guys the job of full polish and detail on the existing paint before it gets stripped. That's how they learn and improve. SO - I think you need a nice Dual Action (DA) polisher like the Porter Cable, the current iteration of Griot's polisher, or even the new Rupes. There is no direct conection between the pad and the motor with these units. You can literally grab ahold of the pad while its running (though not 'recommended') to stop the movement. This gives you a HUGE margin of safety when polishing. That doesn't mean you don't need to be careful, you just have a far wider safety margin while experimenting with different speeds, pads, products, etc. And thats really all this is, trial and error. The FLEX is a direct drive like the DeWalt Rotary, BUT the post that the pad attaches to moves as it spins so it is a true 'dual action' machine. The direct drive gives you considerably more 'power' for correction, but at the cost of a lil' less 'safety margin' since it is constantly spinning as it moves around. The cool thing about the 3-M polishes and Adam's Polishes is that they all have a specified 'cut' as opposed to the Norton Liquid Ice which is a single stage polish (realitively heavy cut) that is 'controlled' by the coarseness or softness of the pad and the speed of the polisher. Also, Norton's is a 'diminishing' polish in that it is supposed to break down into finer and finer polish as it is worked. So if you get a panel almost perferct, but need a touch more polish, you are adding full cut polish to a panel that has already beed worked, potentially introducing more of the very same swirls and holograms that you just struggled to correct. That's why the Norton/DeWalt combo is SO hard to get 'right' - it isn't just a matter of physical 'technique' with the tool - its also knowing exactly what speed to use with each pad for precisely how long as the cut of the product diminishes. You can avoid this learning curve with dedicated polishes and pads like Adams and a DA machine or maybe the FLEX. Don't feel bad and don't get discouraged. Every near perfect car you see at a car show is the result of countless less-impressive results and even a few 'oops' moments along the way. Order either the PC kit or the Flex kit from Adams, watch all the tutorial vids, and get out there and have some FUN! Too bad we don't live closer, I am just heading out to the the spring 'Spa Day' treatment on the wife's BLACK SUV that gets all the slop duty during the winter months. You could bring that truck over and we would make a day of it. mc2hill and Ricky Bobby 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 BradWallace Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 Paul, I am considering using Adams pads & polish... Keeping the DeWalt... Your thoughts... What advantage would I gain over the Norton system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ricky Bobby Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 If you're sticking with the DeWalt rotary I would invest in some information on how to use the tool properly. A rotary is like a precision scalpel without much margin for user error, which in most cases is what ends up giving the buffer trails and holograms you are seeing. A little too much RPM here, a little too much pressure or not moving the machine quick enough there, buffing cycle too long, too much heat generated on a panel etc, or in the aforementioned above, using on plastic painted body panels, can ruin things fairly quickly. Adam has a video on spot removal with the drill backing plate which turns it into a rotary which you should reference but it definitely is for spot correction, and in most all cases, any compounding you do with a rotary will always need finish polishing and a less aggressive pad/polish combo to remove the haze that remains. I would recommend at least picking up a cheap DA for finish polishing and save the rotary for the correction step only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 The Guz Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I would recommend you invest in a DA. If you are looking for a cheap DA that won't break your wallet look at the Harbor Freight one. All you need to do is get a better backing plate and good pads and you have a machine that will get you good results. Porter Cables are always cheap. There is lots of options on the market. Ricky Bobby and Fphillips 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 PDC Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Paul, I am considering using Adams pads & polish... Keeping the DeWalt... Your thoughts... What advantage would I gain over the Norton system? The Rotary is a real heavy duty monster. Capable of the fastest paint correction and the potential for instantaneous damage. When learning how to use these things, working with the softest pad with plenty of extra pad material to extend beyond the edge of the backing plate is a great idea. 3-M makes color coded pads for their Finesse-It line of polishes that are the very large, over-sized ones for the Makita and DeWalt backing plates. The pads have a 'lip' or raised edge that covers the edge of the backing plate. Start with the baby blue pad and Ultrafina which is the softest pad and mildest polish to 'practice' and get a feel for the machine. The blue/ultrafina combo will not repair or correct most defects, BUT - the softness of the pad and lubricity of the Ultrafina product will provide a very comfortable 'feel' for the rotation of the machine. Adams finishing polish will provide the same effect. Try to find a vehicle that has Scratch Resistant Clear Coat or what some manufacturers call 'Ceramic' clear (Benz, BMW) as it is the hardest, and most resistant to damage. Start with the hood since it will be relatively flat and about waist high. Make sure the paint is washed and clayed and as smooth as possible. Mist the pad for extra lubricity with the Ultrafina. Run the rotary at a LOW speed to start. Do NOT push down - only apply the weight of the machine as 'pressure' and - in fact - use both hands to gently 'lift' together to control how much of the actual weight of tha machine is bearing down on the paint. As the pad spins, move smoothly forward the length of the hood from front to back toward the windshield - scoot half a pad width over - and move smoothly back to the front of the hood - scoot half a pad width over - move smoothly back toward the windshield. Continue this 'forward - back' motion overlapping about a half a pad width as you work across the hood. Now - Repeat the process starting on either the driver's or passenger's side working side to side across the hood rather than front to back. Use the same overlapping movement. Keep the pad moving at about the same speed all the time, being careful not to linger on any one spot longer than any other spot. Try to maintain the same pressure or weight of the machine as you work. Your arms will get tired. Take breaks. That is how my neighbor coached me through my vehicle the very first time with a rotary. Duplicating that technique on doors and other upright panels is not easy. Once I felt that I had the hang of it, I stepped up to the black foam pad with the 3-M Swirl Remover which is still a very soft pad and a very mild product. (many folks actually find they can use Swirl remover as a 'final' polish - the baby blue Ultrafina is Type-"A" overkill, which is why I like it so much). You will find that the Swirl Remover has a bit more 'drag' across the paint and does not 'glide' as easily as the Ultrafina did. Possibly true for Adams Correcting Polish as well. Same thing with the actual 3-M mild cut compound and white foam pad, it has more drag than the black pad and Swirl-Remover. SO - learn with the smoothest, slipperiest, least abrasive pad and polish combo just to develop your 'feel' for the machine and your technique. That's how the 'pros' did it for decades before the advent of the first Dual Action machine or the Flex. Even though I own a decent rotary, I have not had it out of the cabinet in years. I think the Flex and the DA do as thorough a job of correction with half the effort and half the risk of damage to the paint. As far as the Norton's that is a single cut product that is designed to diminish or break down as it is used. It also has different cut depending on whether you are using a coarse wool pad or the varying grades of foam pads that Norton sells with the Liquid Ice system. This requires tons of trial and error to figure out exactly how much cut the product provides with each type of pad at varying speed settings and exactly how long it takes for the product to break down or 'diminish' as you are using it. Really tough to gauge correctly the first time through. That's why I like dedicated cut polishes like the 3-M or Adams, along with specific pads for each product. Makes it alot easier to get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Team Adam's Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Echoing whats already been said - Rotary is one of those things that takes a lot of time and practice to learn and the learning curve is steep. While it certainly has its uses the application for them has diminished greatly as pad, chemical, and tool technology has advanced. For most anything the average detailer will encounter a rotary isn't necessary. Its certainly capable of being used for anything from finish jeweling up to heavy correction, but with the ease and safety of a DA/RO polisher theres very little need to use one in most cases, especially if you don't have much experience with them. Just as further 'proof of concept' heres what the flex and the cyclo were capable of on a used, abused, and barn stored Callway SN400 we got in here awhile back. As you'll see in these videos both tools are capable of taking out some pretty significant damage and have a far lower level of 'risk' associated with unskilled operators: http://www.adamsforums.com/topic/24462-adams-vs-callaway-supernatural-400/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 PDC Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 What a cool car! Callaway and Greenwood used to 'run the table' with that generation ov Vette. Phenomenal work on that paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 BradWallace Posted March 12, 2015 Author Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Thanks Paul, Good advise... The black Tundra was my first attempt. I had a very busy day... phone kept ringing, I got in a hurry... I ran it at 1000 rpm, therefore did no damage. As mentioned above... the direct sun exposure reveals holograms... I am researching: backplates, pads and finishing polishes for the Dewalt to get the Tundra where I want it... Then I will polish my Wife's Black pathfinder & Son's black Accord Coupe... Money is not an issue... It's a good possibility I'd purchase a high quality DA, such as the Flex or Rupper (what ever it's called) One thing is for sure, the Tundra is: 6' bed with black fiberglass bed topper, double cab, and with the dewalt & norton pad & polish... I did NO damage. I can always "give the Dewalt away" to a good friend as a favor, if I prefer a DA, I WILL determine if the dewalt was a wrong purchase, then move on. I did receive the Adams Patriot in the mail yesterday, I have high expectations for it... Edited March 12, 2015 by BradWallace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Team Adam's Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Keep us posted! If you can master a rotary it will be helpful in the long run. Even if you don't end up using it all the time, having an understanding of rotary polishing and how to do it right is beneficial for your overall skill as a detailer. Its just not always 100% necessary, and as large throw machines and other technologies for pads and abrasives find their way into the market the gap between the capabilities is closing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 PDC Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I have absolutely no doubt that Adam's Paint Correcting and Paint Finishing Polishes are beyond top notch. Before discovering Adam's, I went to the local Body Shop Supply Co. with my neighbor and - in addition to the Rotary machine I have - I bought the Quart Size Mild Cut Compound, Swirl Remover and Ultrafina with the color coded pads in White, Black and Baby Blue. I later picked up a Quart of the SCR (Scratch Resistant Clear) Finesse-It. So I am committed to using the fine products up before moving over to Adam's polishes and then likely losing interest in the 3-M stuff. But I think you would like those big, over-sized pads that provide some protection around the edges of the backing plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 BradWallace Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 Problem solved: 30 year body shop owner, friend, who is a customer of mine, got tired of my phone calls... Came over with His pads & 3m compound - polishes... I put 3 different pads on my Dewalt, did the drivers side fender myself... Then used Adams Patriot wax... Petfecto the 3m system works for me... Good by Form... forever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Question
BradWallace
A few weeks ago I polished a 2004 Tundra Double cab using a Dewalt polisher @ 1000RPM, foam pad, Norton Liquid Ice...
Today, I went to coin-op car wash for the first time to wash off weeks of road salt.
The sun was out, 50 degree day...
And yes I have a BUTT LOAD of swirl marks.
I used LED lighting when polishing in garage, but the sunlight brought them out...
Will the Adams 2-step solve this?
I have 2 more black vehicles to polish...
I thought I had this down... but do not...
Thanks in Advance..
Brad Wallace
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