Pad Failure on Rupes Mk2 Polisher

[snapier]

Hey gang!

 

Long time amateur detailer and just started using all Adam's products about 2 years ago. I recently bought the new Rupes Mark II polisher with the pad kit. I've used many polishers in the past but have just used the Cyclo for the last year or so. Anyway, I did my first detail job Sunday with the Rupes and about halfway through, the microfiber pad "blew out". The center section collapsed and there was no support left in the pad. I've never had this happen before and I'm wondering if this is common or if I did something wrong? Could the heat from the machine cause this to happen? I should clarify that while I'm an amateur I've done this type of job 15-20 times in the last year (with other machines) and never seen anything like this. I started with orange microfiber, then orange foam and then my son followed behind me with the Cyclo doing the white foam pad. After that I used the grey pad for the paint sealant. Obviously the machine did get a lot of run time.

 

Any advice would be great! I sure don't want to rip through pads on every job!

[The Guz]

What speed were you using on the tool?

[snapier]

It was set between 4 and 5.

[Steve_S]

Hi Stewart, from my research, there are a lot of people blowing out pads from all manufacturers using the new Rupes Mark II, as the power has been increased and understated. What has been said elsewhere is to use between a 3 and 4 setting. I'm sure Dylan will chime in if he sees this. My 15 Mark II is on the way, can't wait!

[stripesace]

I had something similar happen with my orange foam pad, except when it failed it flew off of the machine, and luckily my machine didn't dive back to the paint. 

 

When I retrieved my pad from across the garage, it was very beveled.

 

It wasn't until last weekend when I was working on my wife's Highlander, that I realized the power of this Mark II is advertised to deliver. For starters, the polish was working MUCH faster than it does in any of the videos. It was flashing in like 3 passes instead of 5 or 6. I played with lowering the machine speed and got a little longer working times, but I only went down to like a 5, and not 3 or 4. 

I'd be curious for Adam to weigh in on the Mark II testing they did, and maybe provide some recommendations specific to the Mark II. 

[TheWolf]

Perhaps an ADMIN can edit the title of this thread from "Rupes Polisher Pad Blowout" to "Pad Blowout on Rupes Mk2 Polisher" since I found it somewhat confusing.

[The Guz]

It was set between 4 and 5.

Dylan had posted on other forums that with the added power the mark II should be run at a speed between 3-4.

[LFairbanks]

Perhaps an ADMIN can edit the title of this thread from "Rupes Polisher Pad Blowout" to "Pad Blowout on Rupes Mk2 Polisher" since I found it somewhat confusing.

 

 

By reading the title, I thought the thread was going to be about some closeout deals on pads.

[snapier]

Perhaps an ADMIN can edit the title of this thread from "Rupes Polisher Pad Blowout" to "Pad Blowout on Rupes Mk2 Polisher" since I found it somewhat confusing.

 

 

By reading the title, I thought the thread was going to be about some closeout deals on pads.

 

Sorry guys, I realized what it actually sounded like after I posted it. I should have just used "failure" instead of "blow out". Not sure how to edit the title myself or if I can.

[snapier]

Hi Stewart, from my research, there are a lot of people blowing out pads from all manufacturers using the new Rupes Mark II, as the power has been increased and understated. What has been said elsewhere is to use between a 3 and 4 setting. I'm sure Dylan will chime in if he sees this. My 15 Mark II is on the way, can't wait!

It's a great machine and I love it! I just need to figure out this pad issue. No one wants to rip through $50 worth of pads each job!

 

I had something similar happen with my orange foam pad, except when it failed it flew off of the machine, and luckily my machine didn't dive back to the paint. 

 

When I retrieved my pad from across the garage, it was very beveled.

 

It wasn't until last weekend when I was working on my wife's Highlander, that I realized the power of this Mark II is advertised to deliver. For starters, the polish was working MUCH faster than it does in any of the videos. It was flashing in like 3 passes instead of 5 or 6. I played with lowering the machine speed and got a little longer working times, but I only went down to like a 5, and not 3 or 4. 

I'd be curious for Adam to weigh in on the Mark II testing they did, and maybe provide some recommendations specific to the Mark II. 

I actually had the orange foam pad distort and try to fly off as well. I thought I used to much product and the pad was just to heavy. I used the same amount as usual (3 dabs per section) but I also noticed that it flashed much faster.

 

Dylan had posted on other forums that with the added power the mark II should be run at a speed between 3-4.

I'll try the next one at the lower speed and see what happens. I'll have to wait on the new pads to arrive first. I did not have any issue with the paint sealant on the lower speed of 2-3. I'm guessing that should go to a 1-2?

 

Thanks for the help everyone!

[Dylan@RUPES]

With the introduction of the Mark II we've created large orbit tools that are more powerful than anything thats ever been seen on the market before. As a result we are essentially having to retrain the industry on how to polish. For a long time every dual action random orbital tool, sold everywhere you have been taught to polish at speed 5 or 6 with downward pressure; this starts all the way back with Porter Cables and the fact that you couldn't get any meaningful amount of correction out of the tool unless it was running wide open.

 

With the LHR21II and LHR15II being 30 and 40% (respectively) more powerful than their predecessors you need to rethink your approach to polishing, specifically as it pertains to speed settings. As I tend to do, I like to highlight this new way of thinking with an analogy:

 

THINK OF THE SPEED DIAL ON YOUR POLISHER THE

WAY YOU THINK OF THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL IN YOUR CAR

 

When you get in your car to drive to dinner you don't jump in, start it, and floor it from your driveway all the way to the destination - or at least you shouldn't. You start the car and you drive at partial throttle to stay around the speed limit. The only time you push the accelerator to the floor is when you're trying to get up to highway speed, passing a slow moving vehicle, driving up a steep grade, or outrunning the cops (ok... maybe not the last one).

 

Your polisher should be approached the same way now. You'll run speed 3 or 4 for the mostpart doing your correction... the only time you need to increase up to 5 or 6 is to compensate for slowed or stalled pad rotation, like in a deep curve or in a zone requiring additional speed to maintain the proper movement. You'll then ramp back down to your 'cruising speed' of 3 or 4 and continue.

 

The thing to understand is that the 21 and 15mm movements are HUGE... we're talking 250 and 200% approximately of what a traditional 8mm tool (that most people are used to) are doing. Couple that with added torque and power and you have a tool that puts enormous stresses on the foam. The internal friction between the foams individual cells will generate a ton of heat and can cause internal collapse, melting, or warping. This is why our in house foams are so rigid and made up of unique foam compounds exclusive to our system. The rigidity and structure helps the pads cope with the added stress.

Hope this sheds some light on the issue. The main thing to take away from this is to think critically and not like a robot. Polishing is not paint by numbers, you need to think about the forces at work when you're polishing. If you apply the same speed settings and logic that you used with a 8mm tool to a 15mm tool then to a 15mm tool with a 40% boost of power then something is wrong. You wouldn't drive a stock minivan the same way you'd drive a Ferrari right? Despite the fact they're both cars the approach and application of their potential is vastly different.

 

NOTE/EDIT - also reconsider your sealant/wax stages as well. If you're working with the old logic of "6 for polishing and 3 for waxing" you are actually running the tool at a speed better suited to polishing when you're simply trying to apply a topcoat. This can lead to issues where the product breaks down under the stress and a broken emulsion can lead to sticky/hard to remove residues, surface marring, hazing, and certainly impacts performance.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Dylan@RUPES

[stripesace]

Dylan,

Thanks for the insight from the manufacturer level. Still hoping Adam will jump in and provide some insight from their testing of the polishes and pads specifically from Adam's. 

[mc2hill]

Nothing to add to Dylan's write-up, but it happened to me recently too.  I was working the Rupes 15 MkII at speed 3-4 with a thin MF pad.  After about 6 panels the pad was getting wobbly, then flew off.  I had melted the pad backing and the machine BP a little too.

 

My advice is if you are not using a Rupes MF pad (or other pad without the hole in the middle), then swap the pad every panel or 2.  Keep 2 pads in rotation and allow the 'other' pad to cool down a little between uses.  

Edited April 20, 2016 by mc2hill

[Steve_S]

The internal friction between the foams individual cells will generate a ton of heat and can cause internal collapse, melting, or warping. This is why our in house foams are so rigid and made up of unique foam compounds exclusive to our system. The rigidity and structure helps the pads cope with the added stress.

 

The Rupes pads are failing left and right as well. It's apparent from reading user posts on other forums.

[snapier]

Sounds like this is a much larger issue than just my one time experience. I hope buying the new Mark II instead of the older model wasn't a mistake.

 

Dylan thank you for your detailed explanation on the new machine and the polishing process. I'll take more feedback and decide the best action to take other than just slowing down the machine. At $17 a pad I would rather not experiment to many times to get the solution.

 

Nothing to add to Dylan's write-up, but it happened to me recently too.  I was working the Rupes 15 MkII at speed 3-4 with a thin MF pad.  After about 6 panels the pad was getting wobbly, then flew off.  I had melted the pad backing and the machine BP a little too.

 

My advice is if you are using a Rupes MF pad (or other pad without the hole in the middle), then swap the pad every panel or 2.  Keep 2 pads in rotation and allow the 'other' pad to cool down a little between uses.  

 

All of the pads that I used including the MF have the hole in the center. Maybe the heat from the machine and the friction are just to much for 1 pad to handle for an extended time? Swapping pads may solve the issue but certainly is inconvenient.

[Steve_S]

You bought the correct machine for sure. The pad technology is just going to have to get better as these new machines are becoming more powerful. Until the pad tech catches up with the machines, just adjust the power level and maybe take a few more cooling breaks.

[Dylan@RUPES]

The Rupes pads are failing left and right as well. It's apparent from reading user posts on other forums.

 

Primarily related generally to 2 possible causes:

 

Use of a solvent based compound on our foams which are solvent sensitive.

 

Running the Mark II wide open full time.

 

When the ES tools first came to market there were massive pad failures (ours and others) until peoples technique caught up with the tool. Same can be said here.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Dylan@RUPES

[Adam]

Thanks for this feedback, first of all.  Thanks to you Dylan for showing up with a very good explanation as well!   True, the new machine needs to be used at a lower speed setting.  In our testing, we find that setting 4 on the Mark II is a bit higher than the Mark I at full speed, setting 6.

 

We are going to do some more testing, and have some replacement pads for all who have burned through ours.  Ideally, please send photos of your roasted pad, and we'll get you the replacements quick!  Orders@AdamsPolishes.com 

 

This new tool is powerful, and goes beyond paint correction.   We hope to have an ideal solution identified shortly, and think we are close now....stay tuned!

[snapier]

Thanks for this feedback, first of all.  Thanks to you Dylan for showing up with a very good explanation as well!   True, the new machine needs to be used at a lower speed setting.  In our testing, we find that setting 4 on the Mark II is a bit higher than the Mark I at full speed, setting 6.

 

We are going to do some more testing, and have some replacement pads for all who have burned through ours.  Ideally, please send photos of your roasted pad, and we'll get you the replacements quick!  Orders@AdamsPolishes.com 

 

This new tool is powerful, and goes beyond paint correction.   We hope to have an ideal solution identified shortly, and think we are close now....stay tuned!

Thanks for jumping in Adam! I have 4 more cars to do in the next 30 days so I'll slow down the machine to 3/4 and maybe switch out pads halfway through and see if that solves the problem!

[Sizzle Chest]

My advice is if you are using a Rupes MF pad (or other pad without the hole in the middle), then swap the pad every panel or 2.  Keep 2 pads in rotation and allow the 'other' pad to cool down a little between uses.  

 

This in conjunction with what Dylan has said.  You will not experience any 'issues' if following his and the above advice.

[stripesace]

Thanks for this feedback, first of all.  Thanks to you Dylan for showing up with a very good explanation as well!   True, the new machine needs to be used at a lower speed setting.  In our testing, we find that setting 4 on the Mark II is a bit higher than the Mark I at full speed, setting 6.

 

We are going to do some more testing, and have some replacement pads for all who have burned through ours.  Ideally, please send photos of your roasted pad, and we'll get you the replacements quick!  Orders@AdamsPolishes.com 

 

This new tool is powerful, and goes beyond paint correction.   We hope to have an ideal solution identified shortly, and think we are close now....stay tuned!

 

 

Thanks for jumping in Adam! 

 

I have a feeling a solution here is going to be slowing down the speeds.

[Wild2003ss]

Thank you Adam for always making it right!!!

[DeDonDeRosa]

good info here!

[Z06Seal]

This was an interesting read even though I don't own a Rupes. Surprised this didn't happen with the flex as that is a very powerful tool as well. Is it the large throw Rupes has that does this?

[mc2hill]

This was an interesting read even though I don't own a Rupes. Surprised this didn't happen with the flex as that is a very powerful tool as well. Is it the large throw Rupes has that does this?

 

Yes, the long throw machines produce different forces on the pads.  The pads need a hole in the middle to help reduce the heat build up.   

[Ls1transam]

Good info here! I have a mark 2 as well. It's very powerful!! I've Only gotten to use it twice. I was using it on speed 5 like I thought was ideal. I noticed the polish burnt up in about 2-3 passes. I was also outside in mid 80 degree weather, in the shade though. However, in only 2-3 passes it removed 85% of the swirls in the test section I did. I also had to remove the polish with detail spray. But no marring or hazing. I was using Adams correction polish with an orange microfiber pad. Can't wait to try it out in a cooled garage!