How does a PC help/harm your paint?

[nooner]

First of all I will explain what I mean by harm your paint. I mean cause swirls and undo the very job you are trying to do, I saw Junkmans paint abuse thread so I know that is not a problem.

 

 

I have a some basic questions on how exactly the PC does. I know it orbits (like the earth around the sun), revolves/rotates/spins, and oscilates (bumps up and down), but , why... how does that help/hurt my paint? I know that basically polishes your clear coat so that the whole thing is level and the scratches are gone. Its just like sanding something.... just on a very very minor scale. That is my understanding of it anyway.

 

 

If I put the PC on 1, the weight of the PC is enough to bog it down so I need to actually lift weight off of the pc to allow it to revolve. So are the point of the settings, the more pressure you put, the more "cutting" you will do to your car as long as it is rotating? But the problem is the more pressure you put, the higher the setting you will need it on so that it can stil rotate.

 

Does 2vers per second sound like a good rate at which it should rotate at? And if I need more of less of a cut I change the setting so that I can put down more or less pressure to keep that revolutions rate?

 

Would you ever put it up to 6 and use very little pressure so that it revolved 3-4 time a second? Would that harm your paint?

 

Does the product break down due to the pressure you are using or is it more due to the revolutions. It seems if I give it high revs the product seems to get more wet looking and milky and it never really works in, but the second I put pressure and slow it to 1-2 revs per second the product looks dry and almost disapears like i am wiping it off as I go and it just leaves a film behind it.

 

I think possibly understanding what I am doing will help me in doing it better.

 

Thanks for your time.

[MitsukiGT]

Wish I could help ya. Fellow NOOB here. I am still playing with the settings and pressure myself. You can check out the videos I just posted in my black truck thread, they might shed some light, though I am not sure I do it right...so wait for Junkman to comment on my video.

[Bunky]

Polish is sorta like a controlled sanding process where the polish is a lubricant and abrasive. The pad also acts as an abrasive.

 

Like sanding, pressure, hand speed, time on a spot, etc. effect how much paint is removed. There are many techniques but generally accepted basic technique with a PC is high speed (5 or 6) with enough pressure so the pc slows down some but not to the point it stops spinning at a linear speed of say 1 inch per spec. You can use different combos (speeds, pressure, etc) but you will generally get faster results with the basic technique. The orbital nature insures it is does uniformly and you do not burn through the paint like circular polishers can.

 

You can play with a PC and a foam pad and notice that it really is pretty tame. I was working on removing some shower water spots and found a terry cloth towel with some strong hand pressure worked faster than a PC with a 4-in pad. Now, I would not want to do that on the entire glass by hand so the PC was a little slower but less tiring, etc.

[Wrenchin]

Buffing your paint finish is an abrasive process. It slowly removes "layers" of your clear coat. Your swirl's and very light scratches are usually very minimal in terms of depth. By buffing away the top "layers" you exposed a layer of solid clear. The process in doing so adds scratch's while it removes the "layers". If the scratch's are very deep into the clear coat you will not have enough clear coat left to remove the scratch. Depending on the thickness of your clear coat and condition of it. Buffing those will remove all the clear coat exposing the base coat color. If that happens you will need get a paint shop involved.

 

That is why its a good idea to use Junkmans "Slow Cut" process. It stays on the safe side with minimal clear coat removal. Its a fine art to judge how thick ones clear coat is without tools to do so.

 

Hope that helps some

[Junkman2008]

First of all I will explain what I mean by harm your paint. I mean cause swirls and undo the very job you are trying to do, I saw Junkmans paint abuse thread so I know that is not a problem.

 

Good. I was hoping you had watched those.

 

I have a some basic questions on how exactly the PC does. I know it orbits (like the earth around the sun), revolves/rotates/spins, and oscilates (bumps up and down), but , why... how does that help/hurt my paint?

 

First off, the PC oscillates or orbits and rotates. Oscillating or orbiting is the exact same thing. Rotating is spinning in a perfect circle. There is no bumping up and down action that you speak of. That would be an absolutely worthless action if the PC did that. Here is a diagram of the the difference between a rotary and a PC's movement:

 

 

You use the PC to repair your paint by shaving the clear coat down to a level just below the scratches or swirls in your clear coat. That is called polishing. That is how the clear coat is repaired and the scratches are removed.

 

I know that basically polishes your clear coat so that the whole thing is level and the scratches are gone. Its just like sanding something.... just on a very very minor scale. That is my understanding of it anyway.

 

Yes, the combination of the PC, the pad, the amount of pressure you use and the polish is cutting away the clear coat, down to a level where there are no more scratches or swirls.

 

If I put the PC on 1, the weight of the PC is enough to bog it down so I need to actually lift weight off of the pc to allow it to revolve. So are the point of the settings, the more pressure you put, the more "cutting" you will do to your car as long as it is rotating? But the problem is the more pressure you put, the higher the setting you will need it on so that it can stil rotate.

 

You should proof read your post before posting. I'm somewhat lost on what you are saying here but I'll try and answer.

 

Speeds 1 & 2 are pretty much useless unless you're waxing. That is the only reason you will use those speeds. As you increase the speed of the polisher, you can apply more pressure. However, I feel that if you stop the pad from rotating, you are killing 50% of the PC's effectiveness. You have to allow both motions of the polisher to work in order to benefit from what the polisher can do. Everyone knows that a rotary polisher can cut 10 times faster because of the way the pad rotates. The PC's pad rotates too, although on a much slower RPM. Since rotation is what does the most amount of cutting and applying too much pressure slows the rotation down, you do yourself no favors by laying on the polisher.

 

Now I say that however, there are times when I will feel a need to lay on the polisher. This is not my normal method and I try and avoid it at all cost but I will use that technique on rare occasions. Those occasions will vary depending on the condition of the clear coat that I am working on. Generally, I will not go above a setting of 5 and will not apply more than 9-14lbs of pressure. That is my main technique when using the PC.

 

Does 2vers per second sound like a good rate at which it should rotate at? And if I need more of less of a cut I change the setting so that I can put down more or less pressure to keep that revolutions rate?

 

What the heck is a 2vers?

 

Would you ever put it up to 6 and use very little pressure so that it revolved 3-4 time a second? Would that harm your paint?

 

Actually, finishing up a pass by letting up on the amount of pressure that you are using is called "jeweling the finish". It allows the pad to spin faster and breaks down the remaining polish allowing you a highly polished shine. Turning the polisher up to 6 with a orange or yellow pad will allow you to create damage on your clear coat, especially if you buff the clear coat dry. I try and avoid a setting of 6 if at all possible.

 

Does the product break down due to the pressure you are using or is it more due to the revolutions. It seems if I give it high revs the product seems to get more wet looking and milky and it never really works in, but the second I put pressure and slow it to 1-2 revs per second the product looks dry and almost disapears like i am wiping it off as I go and it just leaves a film behind it.

 

How fast the product breaking down depends on more factors than what you've mentioned. There's the amount of product you're using per application, there's the temperature you're working in, the temperature of the surface you're working on, the pad choice, the product itself (etc...). As you can see, a lot of variables can affect the product's break down time.

 

I think possibly understanding what I am doing will help me in doing it better.

 

Thanks for your time.

 

 

Experience is the teacher of all things learned.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Junkman2008

[nooner]

 

First off, the PC oscillates or orbits and rotates. Oscillating or orbiting is the exact same thing. Rotating is spinning in a perfect circle. There is no bumping up and down action that you speak of. That would be an absolutely worthless action if the PC did that. Here is a diagram of the the difference between a rotary and a PC's movement:

 

 

 

First of all, sorry if I sound condesending like I am talking down, I am just trying to epxplain things to make it more clear as I have an obvious confusing in what certain terms mean.

 

I think of ocsillation as meaning something goes back and forth, like a sine wave or a spring or a pendulum, You all have much more experience than I do detailing, I don't want to sound like a "know it all" but that is how it was taught to me. I know a lot more about physics than I do detailing. I thought OPM was orbits per minute. You can take the pad and backing plate off and watch it orbit around an impaginary axis as if the sun was imaginary and the earth is where nut that the plate goes into.

 

 

Orbiting is the "secret" to the daul action that prevents you from burning the paint (that and the clutch). edit: as I found out later, it is the off centered orbit, or the oscilation that is the secret.

 

If you hold on to the pad with your hand and don't let it rotate, it will still orbit at 5opm or whatever you set it at. Then you let go and the pad is rotating around a central axis (the nut), which is illustrated with your black line you put on the backing plate, and that central axis oribts around an immaginary central axis, hence the name "orbital buffer" on some dual action polishers.

 

To expalin how it could oscillate, think of a helicopter blades or a helicopter sitting on the ground spinning. When it gets unbalanced it bounces up and down and can cause the helicopter to viberate really bad. That is an example of oscillation.

 

I thought oscilation was one of the ways it kept he heat down by releiving presure a bit when it oscilates, turns out I am wrong.

 

Edit: Now I see that there really is no central axis that is oribts around, but more of an off centered axis which is counterweighted, and that is where the oscillation comes from. Never mind, I understand it. Its like a rotary wenkel engine in terms of oscillation.

 

 

I just found out my problem!

 

I just checked my washer and it is slightly crushed creating an imbalacne in the spining and causing it to oscilate/wobble. When I first got it I spun it and it oscilated/wobbled, but I thought it was supposed to do that and the backing plate had weights built in it do make it off balance. Now that you are telling me it is not supposed to oscilate/wobble, I checked into it and it is the one side of the washer is slightly crushed. It looks like this special washer is two metal washers with a ceramic plate or something in between them, and the ceramic plate was slightly cruhsed on one side.

 

This explaines why it vibrated so much! I just thought I ws a wimp and muscled through it, thinking you guys did too. I gues that should have tipped me off when it was viberating so bad

 

What are the chances of the one guy that has a different thinking of oscillation actually gets a broken washer that allows that kind of oscillation that he is familiar with. I thought it was weird when I saw it spin unbalanced, but the I remembered the word oscillation and thought there was a built in weight or somehting and it was supposed to oscillate like that. To clear up confusion we will call this type of oscillation, a wobble.

 

I will put up a video in a different post to show you how much the backing plate on mypc wobbles and if it is a normal amount of wobble or not. I assume it should have no wobble and be conpletely balanced. Maybe someone with a good pc can spin the backing plate and show me how balanced it is so I can determine if mine is good or not.

 

I will have to call up customer service and check on this.

 

Thanks for that help. That really explains a lot like the violent viberation and the pad wearing funny and dusting everywhere. I just wish it didn't take me 16 hours into the job to find this out!

 

 

 

You should proof read your post before posting. I'm somewhat lost on what you are saying here but I'll try and answer.

 

Speeds 1 & 2 are pretty much useless unless you're waxing. That is the only reason you will use those speeds. As you increase the speed of the polisher, you can apply more pressure. However, I feel that if you stop the pad from rotating, you are killing 50% of the PC's effectiveness. You have to allow both motions of the polisher to work in order to benefit from what the polisher can do. Everyone knows that a rotary polisher can cut 10 times faster because of the way the pad rotates. The PC's pad rotates too, although on a much slower RPM. Since rotation is what does the most amount of cutting and applying too much pressure slows the rotation down, you do yourself no favors by laying on the polisher.

 

Now I say that however, there are times when I will feel a need to lay on the polisher. This is not my normal method and I try and avoid it at all cost but I will use that technique on rare occasions. Those occasions will vary depending on the condition of the clear coat that I am working on. Generally, I will not go above a setting of 5 and will not apply more than 9-14lbs of pressure. That is my main technique when using the PC.

 

yea, sorry my english(grammar and spelling) sucks. That is why my post have about 7-8 edits on them avg. lol

 

I think in the end there you answered my question. It is the rotating that does the cutting work, not so much the pressure. So you wouldn't want to go up to 6 and use so much pressure that it rotates as fast as 5, the reason you go up to 6 is to use 9-14lbs of pressure and get higher revs per second. To get revs per second I just use the black line and it seems like your videos you avg about 2 revs per second on 5 OPMs and 3-4 on 6 OPMs.

 

What the heck is a 2vers?

 

sorry about that, I ment rev as in revolutions (the black line spinning), thats a typo I didn't catch.

 

 

Actually, finishing up a pass by letting up on the amount of pressure that you are using is called "jeweling the finish". It allows the pad to spin faster and breaks down the remaining polish allowing you a highly polished shine. Turning the polisher up to 6 with a orange or yellow pad will allow you to create damage on your clear coat, especially if you buff the clear coat dry. I try and avoid a setting of 6 if at all possible.

 

Thanks, that is good to know, that is kind of stuff I was hoping to hear by starting this thread. As you can see, I know how the PC works, the pricipals of it. I just wanted to know how it effects the paint which you have answered. Thank you

Edited September 26, 2009 by nooner

[Junkman2008]

First of all, sorry if I sound condesending like I am talking down to you, I am just trying to epxplain things to make it more clear.

 

Ocsillation means something goes back and forth, like a sine wave or a spring or a pendulum, I am not sure where adams got the word or why they used it. You all have much more experience than I do detailing, I don't want to sound like a "know it all" but that is how it was taught to me. I know a lot more about physics than I do detailing. I thought OPM was orbits per minute. You can take the pad and backing plate off and watch it orbit around an impaginary axis as if the sun was imaginary and the earth is where nut that the plate goes into.

 

 

Maybe Adam can point out to me where he got his definition for oscillation, or maybe he was misinformed and he can correct it so that he doesn't end up misleading people (like myself), thinking this is supposed to oscillate.

 

Orbiting is the "secret" to the daul action that prevents you from burning the paint (that and the clutch).

 

If you hold on to the pad with your hand and don't let it rotate, it will still orbit at 5opm or whatever you set it at. Then you let go and the pad is rotating around a central axis (the nut), which is illustrated with your black line you put on the backing plate, and that central axis oribts around an immaginary central axis, hence the name "orbital buffer" on some dual action polishers.

 

To expalin how it could oscillate, think of a helicopter blades or a helicopter sitting on the ground spinning. When it gets unbalanced it bounces up and down and can cause the helicopter to viberate really bad. That is an example of oscillation.

 

I thought oscilation was one of the ways it kept he heat down by releiving presure a bit when it oscilates, turns out I am wrong.

 

I just found out my problem!

 

I just checked my washer and it is slightly crushed creating an imbalacne in the spining and causing it to oscilate. When I first got it I spun it and it oscilated, but I thought it was supposed to do that and the backing plate had weights built in it do make it off balance. Now that you are telling me it is not supposed to oscilate, I checked into it and it is the one side of the washer is slightly crushed. It looks like this special washer is two metal washers with a ceramic plate or something in between them, and the ceramic plate was slightly cruhsed on one side.

 

This explaines why it vibrated so much! I just thought I ws a wimp and muscled through it, thinking you guys did too. I gues that should have tipped me off when it was viberating so bad

 

 

I will have to call up customer service and check on this.

 

Thanks for that help. That really explains a lot like the violent viberation and the pad wearing funny and dusting everywhere. I just wish it didn't take me 16 hours into the job to find this out!

 

The term "oscillation" is not a Adam's term, that is a term used to describe the movement of all orbital polishers. It is actually a patented term that is used to describe the way orbital polishers spin. As far as a definition, it runs deep and has quite a few definitions.