Any Electricians/Electrical Contractors???

[3PedalMINI]

My industy (Custom Electronics Installer) is having a really hard time fighting off the unions and it looks like the states will be requiring electrical licenses to be able to do low voltage work in the next 3-5 years without the ability of grandfathering.

 

So this puts me in a real sticky situation. As an owner of my company this imedialtely puts me out of business, NJ/PA have already said that owners must have a license when these new laws go into effect.

 

I understand ill need 8000 hours to get my license, but how do i get the hours? i called my local IBEW on how to become an electrician and they were less then helpful and essential hung up the phone. (i was just inquiring, didnt tell them i was an AV guy)

 

What is the best way of getting an apprenticeship and start earning hours...Thanks!! It also doesnt help that my industry is slipping away at an alarming rate, would be nice to fall onto if i ever needed to

[NathanJax]

Interesting to hear. I use to do low voltage stuff and still do it on the side, so it will be interesting to see where this goes.

 

Good Luck!

[70'sChevyGirl]

If you have done this type of work in the past you would think that would be enough proof.

 

Find a friend that is an Electrician and fudge the paperwork with the experience info.

 

I recently helped one of my workers' get his Electrical License in Oklahoma. It really wasn't that hard and he passed his test on the first try.

 

Good luck on that. It would really suck if you had to close down your business because of some updated law.

[Team Adam's]

Ugh... not this again? It came up years ago, and I maintain to this day ITS LOW VOLTAGE WORK. No one is gonna get electrocuted to death by an inbound RG6 line carrying signal or a speaker wire.

 

I feel for you man... I thought it was a bad idea back when it first came around, and it still is. Could you possibly hire on a cert'd electrician as an employee and piggy pack on his license?

 

The custom integration world should, if anything, have its own setup... CEDIA certifications are a start, but there should be something on that level thats required to do business legitimately.

[pjwoolw]

So you would need a contractors license to install a car stereo? Thats a stretch. So would a automobile repair shop (for example) need a specific electrical license to install a battery?

 

Exactly what kind of license?

[BlueGenCoupe]

Another way for unions to make more money, by implamenting apprentership, schooling, union dues/fees and initiation fees. As an employer I think you have to pay a certain amount to the union per employee.

 

I feel for you, be prepared to get roped.

 

I know when I was working as a carpenter for a labours union, I had over 1800 hours. When I joined the carpenters union, I was able to transfer those hours over. If you can prove you have all these hours, meet with a union rep and see what they say. The only problem is you most likely wont pass your your final test to get your license. In these apprentership programs they teach you about everything...( commercial/ High voltage, residential, and whatever else is involved)

 

IMO your screwed unless you complete the 8000hrs and pass your license exam

[Team Adam's]

So you would need a contractors license to install a car stereo? Thats a stretch. So would a automobile repair shop (for example) need a specific electrical license to install a battery?

 

Exactly what kind of license?

 

Hes talking about home electronics installation.

[02Xtreme07ss]

First be clear on what it is you need to do to meet the state requirement. There are plenty of licensed non-union electricians in NJ and PA. So just because the state says you will need a license, doesn't mean you have to be a part of a union. While you might not be able to compete with the unions on some of the larger projects, you'll still be able to run your business and make a living as a licensed electrician.

 

Call your local vo-tech school, or even GCC, and see if they can give you any information on their programs to get you started with the course load you will probably need before you can start earning hours toward your license.

 

I do agree with most of the comments here though, it's a bit far fetched if you're NOT installing electrical outlets, switches, lighting, etc. and just running your interconnects, speaker wiring, network cable, controls, etc.

[3PedalMINI]

Interesting to hear. I use to do low voltage stuff and still do it on the side, so it will be interesting to see where this goes.

 

Good Luck!

 

Nice, its an interesting business to be in. Most times a complete PITA but when it works and the customer is thrilled thats when its rewarding, in a way.

 

If you have done this type of work in the past you would think that would be enough proof.

 

Find a friend that is an Electrician and fudge the paperwork with the experience info.

 

I recently helped one of my workers' get his Electrical License in Oklahoma. It really wasn't that hard and he passed his test on the first try.

 

Good luck on that. It would really suck if you had to close down your business because of some updated law.

 

Thats what it is looking like will happen if something isnt done. I think unions have a place i really do its when they abuse it and go after industries that could put millions out of work is when they have gone to far. They have grown to big and powerful and have to much of a voice in washington.

 

Care to fudge some paperwork for me?

 

 

Ugh... not this again? It came up years ago' date=' and I maintain to this day ITS LOW VOLTAGE WORK. No one is gonna get electrocuted to death by an inbound RG6 line carrying signal or a speaker wire.

 

I feel for you man... I thought it was a bad idea back when it first came around, and it still is. Could you possibly hire on a cert'd electrician as an employee and piggy pack on his license?

 

The custom integration world should, if anything, have its own setup... CEDIA certifications are a start, but there should be something on that level thats required to do business legitimately.[/quote']

 

No, the different things im reading and hearing is the **owner** must be a licensed electrician. I guess the flip side would to hire a guy and make him "CEO". But that would also make them liable for any business decisions if anything were to happen to the company. Not sure how many guys would be willing to do that.

 

Cedia has done a good job of keeping the IBEW out of our industry but they are losing, and losing very quickly. Cedia is actually not doing so well. The acting director stepped down a few months ago and they put in some dimwit. There are also alot of cedia certified guys that are leaving it because Cedia hasnt done anything for them in the past couple years and continue to rake in dues. It has become another "association".

 

I would be all for unionizing our industry as there are alot of things that need to happen, especially with the NEC. The problem is IBEW is just too large and powerful and would squash/sue our industry for taking jobs "away" from electricians.

 

To many times on jobsites we have been harassed by electricians because they have been brainwashed to think we stole their jobs. To them a wire is a wire. All to many times ive been called out to jobsites by the GC to move a wire in the attic 12" over because the electrician wont touch my wires. These are wires that are just laying on the joists

 

Funny you should bring up the RG6. I had an inspector fail the rough in because a cat5/crestnet was 1ft away from copper pipes in one area. He claimed that those wires bundled together carry enough load to kill someone if it ever arched. after a 20minute debate he finally let it pass, especially since you can have a line voltage wire that close. He assumed the wires carried more voltage because of their grouping then a 15amp line

 

 

So you would need a contractors license to install a car stereo? Thats a stretch. So would a automobile repair shop (for example) need a specific electrical license to install a battery?

 

Exactly what kind of license?

 

Exactly, where does it stop. Infact i feel like car audio is more dangerous because they routinely deal with capacitors that can instantly kill someone. accidently cut vital lines etc....

 

Another way for unions to make more money, by implamenting apprentership, schooling, union dues/fees and initiation fees. As an employer I think you have to pay a certain amount to the union per employee.

 

I feel for you, be prepared to get roped.

 

I know when I was working as a carpenter for a labours union, I had over 1800 hours. When I joined the carpenters union, I was able to transfer those hours over. If you can prove you have all these hours, meet with a union rep and see what they say. The only problem is you most likely wont pass your your final test to get your license. In these apprentership programs they teach you about everything...( commercial/ High voltage, residential, and whatever else is involved)

 

IMO your screwed unless you complete the 8000hrs and pass your license exam

 

We'll see what the year holds and how the law is written. But it sounds like we will not be grandfathered into this like the security guys were a few years back. My business is 5 1/2 years old and i cant even tell you how many hours i would have in this.

 

I have a passion for electrical work and extensively know ohms law etc. I have wired pools/whole homes/additions for friends and families and really understand the codes and how electricity works. just for my own curiosity i would love to see this test and do it and see how i would score. I wired my first outlet by my self when i was 6:lolsmack:

 

But it really is looking like this time our industry is going to lose. As it stands right now im getting a few of my local competitors together and see if we cant get something going in Harrisburg/Trenton and help lobby against this. It would literally put millions out of work if this goes through.

 

First be clear on what it is you need to do to meet the state requirement. There are plenty of licensed non-union electricians in NJ and PA. So just because the state says you will need a license, doesn't mean you have to be a part of a union. While you might not be able to compete with the unions on some of the larger projects, you'll still be able to run your business and make a living as a licensed electrician.

 

Call your local vo-tech school, or even GCC, and see if they can give you any information on their programs to get you started with the course load you will probably need before you can start earning hours toward your license.

 

I do agree with most of the comments here though, it's a bit far fetched if you're NOT installing electrical outlets, switches, lighting, etc. and just running your interconnects, speaker wiring, network cable, controls, etc.

 

Called the local votec, reviews show its a scam and for 13k i think theres another option. Maybe i dont have to join the union but what is going through is that we would have to be licensed electricians to run low voltage stuff..Hey a wire is a wire, right?

 

GCC? you mean Gloucester Country College? are you from around here? thats an awesome idea i got my associates business degree from them that place is really stupid though, but they might have some good info after an hour of taking though a million people before they refer me to someone who might know. Ill give them a call.

[02Xtreme07ss]

Called the local votec, reviews show its a scam and for 13k i think theres another option. Maybe i dont have to join the union but what is going through is that we would have to be licensed electricians to run low voltage stuff..Hey a wire is a wire, right?

 

GCC? you mean Gloucester Country College? are you from around here? thats an awesome idea i got my associates business degree from them that place is really stupid though, but they might have some good info after an hour of taking though a million people before they refer me to someone who might know. Ill give them a call.

 

Wow, I never would have thought the votec would be that pricey. Now that is nuts. Yes, I do mean Gloucester County College. You could even try Camden County College as well. And yes, I am originally from NJ, the Medford area specifically. I got my BS in Comp. Sci. from Rowan. All of my family is still in South Jersey and I myself lived there for 30 years before moving to CA a little over 5 years ago. Good luck!

[DieselDude]

I think the Community College would be a good idea to check into. Also, from a business perspective that opens up another opportunity.

[Team Adam's]

No, the different things im reading and hearing is the **owner** must be a licensed electrician. I guess the flip side would to hire a guy and make him "CEO". But that would also make them liable for any business decisions if anything were to happen to the company. Not sure how many guys would be willing to do that.

 

WOW... that sucks. It wasn't industry wide when I was doing it, but certain facilities we worked in required a contractors license. We had 2 guys on payroll who were licensed so we would just assign them to those properties as 'project managers' and that would satisfy the owners/building management enough to get the jobs done.

 

Good luck with whatever happens man.

[Odds and Ends]

Brendon,

 

That does indeed suck, but it's probably inevitable. I've managed to scrape by for many years without a Class C Low Voltage license or a Class A contractors license since all of the production builders and custom home builders I've worked for have held the necessary licenses and I was simply a subcontractor. My regular business license covers me to do regular installs and conduct business in the state of Virginia. This is not the case now, but very few people follow the rules when it comes to A/V stuff. Seems as though there is a new company that claims to offer these services that pops up every couple of weeks. Here in VA, it is also illegal to touch, install, sell, etc, anything related to security as that is regulated by the Dept of Criminal Justice (DCJS) and that includes cameras and DVRs. But, how many people get a license to hang a camera on somebody's house and plug it into the internet? Hard to compete with that when they sell that stuff at Costco. I had to do lots of class time and paperwork to get those creds since my builders wanted me to do security and that was one aspect I never got into.

 

As of last month, I've all but closed my business. After a 13 year run, I've gotten rid of all staff and I'm back to doing things on my own...mostly computer networking, phone systems, consulting, etc. Not doing much installing anymore as offering competitive pricing on products and fighting with people over how much hanging a TV should cost isn't worth my time and aggravation. As you're learning on a daily basis, this business isn't what it used to be. I'd rather detail cars!!!

 

Speaking of which, I'm probably taking the detail biz full time and my electronics stuff part time gradually over the next month or so.

 

Good luck with everything!

 

- Darryl

[3PedalMINI]

Brendon,

 

That does indeed suck, but it's probably inevitable. I've managed to scrape by for many years without a Class C Low Voltage license or a Class A contractors license since all of the production builders and custom home builders I've worked for have held the necessary licenses and I was simply a subcontractor. My regular business license covers me to do regular installs and conduct business in the state of Virginia. This is not the case now, but very few people follow the rules when it comes to A/V stuff. Seems as though there is a new company that claims to offer these services that pops up every couple of weeks. Here in VA, it is also illegal to touch, install, sell, etc, anything related to security as that is regulated by the Dept of Criminal Justice (DCJS) and that includes cameras and DVRs. But, how many people get a license to hang a camera on somebody's house and plug it into the internet? Hard to compete with that when they sell that stuff at Costco. I had to do lots of class time and paperwork to get those creds since my builders wanted me to do security and that was one aspect I never got into.

 

As of last month, I've all but closed my business. After a 13 year run, I've gotten rid of all staff and I'm back to doing things on my own...mostly computer networking, phone systems, consulting, etc. Not doing much installing anymore as offering competitive pricing on products and fighting with people over how much hanging a TV should cost isn't worth my time and aggravation. As you're learning on a daily basis, this business isn't what it used to be. I'd rather detail cars!!!

 

Speaking of which, I'm probably taking the detail biz full time and my electronics stuff part time gradually over the next month or so.

 

Good luck with everything!

 

- Darryl

 

You know its funny, Here in NJ one of the worst states in the US for taxes/licensing etc doesn't require any type of low voltage or security license for cameras. I cant do Security and that fine by me as its not my thing. I agree with you too on a new company popping up every other week that consists of 2 18 year olds and a beat up car with not so much as even car insurance.

 

Whats funny is i started this business when i was 17 legitly under my dads name since i couldnt legally own a company until i was 18. On my 18th birthday i wiped my dad off the list and its been me on all the paperwork. Alot of people say i started this with mommy and daddys money but they didnt put a dime in. My paycheck from sears would go right into growing my company. I had liability insurance and contractors license from the start and it sickens me watching these people young and old hack up someones house. Im doing a pretty large outdoor project that is wrapping up on monday and my customers are very wealthy. They were had by a company the builder recommended years ago todo their structured wiring and "whole house audio"

 

they spent an additional 20k for this sad mess. At least they went all out with the high quality labels.

 

 

They were so reluctant to spend the money with me because they had been burned so bad by this integrator (which is now out of business) I have already been asked to redo the theater and completely overhall that mess and install a proper Packedge wireless network. Over the next year ill slowly be ripping out the DA system and replacing with either crestron or control 4 as i overhaul the house properly.

 

Its guys like this that give real integrators a bad name, not only that but because there is little to no policing; its just a given we have to compete with trunk slammers. On top of that people are not willing to spend more to install a TV then what they payed for it. Especially since decent TV's are well below 800 bucks now. Margins are slipping away at an alarming rate distributors cant even beat the prices that can be found on amazon etc. Then you have the people that nickel and dime you for 10 bucks because they found the model cheaper on amazon etc

 

I just dont get it, these places are willing to make $10 on a sale just to steal it away from the other online retailer. I have gotten to the point that i show pictures on my estimates with a brief description because as soon as you give a model number they will google it. When someone askes why i didnt give a # i tell them im not in the business to provide a shopping list, If that is what you want then the list is $129.99 fully applied to the entire invoice should they decide to go with me. Most will just ask questions and accept they arnt getting a list. Others will punch kick and scream that im charging for a "list" some have paid some have told me to go F^% my self. But to be honest those arent the clients i want anyway.

 

I have also started charging for consultations and for system design (outside of the regular TV/5.1 system). This has really weeded out the tire kickers and amazon shoppers. When i started the business i made a huge mistake and marketed my self as a cheaper alternative to bestbuy etc. it has taken a name change and the better part of 2 years to claw my way out of this mindset. I am currently having my website redesigned to help convey the message of custom installer rather then an "electronics installer"

 

Sadly i feel the industry is headed to consulting/design. With the every shrinking complexity of systems and black boxes there isnt much in the middle to lower uper end of this industry to survive. There will always be the super high end but aside from the customers writing blank checks anyone else will beat you to a bloody pulp over your prices.

 

I need to make a decision soon whether its viable to stay in this industry or make a major career move. Whether that be an electrician or something else, Myself, you and alot of other CI's arent confident that what we do will be here in 3-5 years.

 

I always thought that i could fall back onto detailing cars because i have a pretty extensive client list but unfortunately i dont have the patience to do it. If i did i would have to be the guy in the office running the business, But at the same time detailing has it even worse with the Hacks and over promisers. Then again i spent another day of trouble shooting HDMI distribution issues and was thinking today that once the car leaves the shop its done and you dont have the constant worry of "when" there will be an issue.

 

[Chuckster]

I am a licensed NJ Electrical Contractor/Construction Official and very familiar with apprentice programs and obtaining an EC license so here ya go.

To get a Journey Mans certificate you must get a job in the electrical industry (electrical contractor, factory, quarry, casino, etc.) and take 144 hours of night school and work 2000 hours per year. Find a job and register for school, you do not have to be Union to do this. Starting pay is poor and jobs are hard to get because of the economy.

 

To get a NJ EC License you must meet the requirements of the NJ Board of Electrical Examiners. Call them in Newark and they will send you a packet..... Very tough to get and you do not have to serve an Union apprenticeship, you must show experience in the trade.

 

To do low voltage work (stereo, home entertainment, intercoms, etc) for home owners you do not need to be a licensed EC however you need a Home Improvement Registration Number (aka: 13VH number) and must prove you have insurance, etc. NO experience has to be proven...... This is scary! But Hey! I don't make the rules and it is a big "revenue getter" for NJ and they use it for tracking purposes.

 

NJ also has a Burglar and Fire alarm installers permit also but that is all you can work on.

 

The license that is "King" is the Electrical Contractors license and that permits you to operate as a contractor doing all phases of electrical work. You must have experience and pass a test to obtain this. Read the info packet because it changes over the years.

 

Start searching at your local Vo Tech night school and see what they have to offer.... Ask to speak to the apprenticeship director. Don't waste time calling the Union Hall. Training classes start in September so do your research now.

 

Hope this helps.

[Chuckster]

Here is another angle for you to consider too........ Team up with a Electrical contractor and develop a "low voltage division" within the contractors company and get experience to obtain your electrical license from there. This can be beneficial to both of you since MOST electrical contractors do not know much about network/low voltage wiring. I know a few ECs who have developed a speciality division within their company for generators, alarms and structured wiring. Pick out a Elect contractor with a lot of contacts and a business plan to grow, bring something to the table that can benefit both of you.... Choose wisely!

Back in the early 80's I hired two guys who knew alarm work (because I knew nothing about alarms and low voltage) and I expanded into alarms with central station monitoring. I saw a need to do this because I was already wiring the commercial/industrial building while watching some alarm contractor pulling wires for video/fire/burg next to mine while making some big bucks doing something that I could do..... Plus It made the customer happy knowing the job would be done right. ONE STOP SHOPPING is the key to success.

[MAYBEN]

That sucks Bro.. sorry to hear, I hope it works out in the end for you..

 

I initially thought the thread was going to be about upgrading your panel, lol, which I need done..

[3PedalMINI]

I am a licensed NJ Electrical Contractor/Construction Official and very familiar with apprentice programs and obtaining an EC license so here ya go.

To get a Journey Mans certificate you must get a job in the electrical industry (electrical contractor, factory, quarry, casino, etc.) and take 144 hours of night school and work 2000 hours per year. Find a job and register for school, you do not have to be Union to do this. Starting pay is poor and jobs are hard to get because of the economy.

 

To get a NJ EC License you must meet the requirements of the NJ Board of Electrical Examiners. Call them in Newark and they will send you a packet..... Very tough to get and you do not have to serve an Union apprenticeship, you must show experience in the trade.

 

To do low voltage work (stereo, home entertainment, intercoms, etc) for home owners you do not need to be a licensed EC however you need a Home Improvement Registration Number (aka: 13VH number) and must prove you have insurance, etc. NO experience has to be proven...... This is scary! But Hey! I don't make the rules and it is a big "revenue getter" for NJ and they use it for tracking purposes.

 

NJ also has a Burglar and Fire alarm installers permit also but that is all you can work on.

 

The license that is "King" is the Electrical Contractors license and that permits you to operate as a contractor doing all phases of electrical work. You must have experience and pass a test to obtain this. Read the info packet because it changes over the years.

 

Start searching at your local Vo Tech night school and see what they have to offer.... Ask to speak to the apprenticeship director. Don't waste time calling the Union Hall. Training classes start in September so do your research now.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Chuck, thanks so much for that info it really helps. Where in NJ are you? i never thought about calling electrical contractors to see if they want to partner up. I moved my business over to PA and NJ made me discontinue my general contractors license and reapply. Currently waiting on my out of state 13v number.

 

I do know that if i have to start out at the bottom it would be a massive paycut, ive read all over the board at what electricians start at, whats the average? from 10/hr up to 22/hour for starting guys.