Team Adam's Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 I'm not an expert in the field or anything and I really do have mixed feelings about the government bailouts - but I do think GM should be saved. 1 in 10 people are fed somehow because of the American auto industry. It's not like if GM goes under it's only GM employees that would be affected, it's all the little companies that supply parts to GM to build the vehicles, market them, sell them, etc etc. Take Ford for example. Technically Ford only makes a few parts! The sheet metal for the vehicle bodies and the drivetrain are actually the only Ford items they produce - modern large scale auto makers are more accurately simply assembly plants. An overwhelming majority of a new vehicle is comprised of parts from hundreds of different companies that sell to the big 3. A company in one state might be the sole supplies of all the nuts and bolts for a vehicle while another company produces all the interior plastics. These are all smaller companies that employ at most a few dozen or maybe a hundred people - all dependent on the larger assembly companies (Ford, GM, DC.) If GM goes under it won't be only those guys laid off - it'll be an avalanche of small firms that will take a hit. It's 2008 and with OSHA requirements and the government's push to keep jobs without our borders I gotta say, unions have a tough time selling their current necessity to the public. How they can justify some of their requirements to the auto makers is beyond me. My father supported our family thanks to the auto industry but was never union and he did fine. When a line worker with Toyota can do the same job for half the price the UAW demands it really puts into question how GM could afford to pay their employees. I think if GM gets the bailout the government should have a say in how it's spent and if that means dropping some of the requirements the UAW demands then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjwvette Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 This could get interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70'sChevyGirl Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 All of Motor City is worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitelord Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 I agree, if the government fronts the money, they should be the ones calling the shots. If the owner/investors don't like that, go get the money somewhere else. From most reports, the bailout only gets them to 2010. What then, another bailout? It's got to stop some where. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylander Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 I'm really split on it, too. On one hand it's a lot of jobs to be saved, and maybe 1 year of salvation is enough to get them past the recession and into better times (and from what I understand, in 2010 there's a big change in the UAW contract that takes medical and/or pension liabilities off of GM and gives the General a much better outlook. But on the other hand, sheesh... how much can us taxpayers afford??? $700 billion here, $50 billion there and pretty soon I'm going to be tapped out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97F1504RAD Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 It's not just GM that is in trouble it is all three of the Detroit Auto manufactures. I personally am not fond of bailing anyone out regardless. Are the Feds going to bail any of us out who may be in trouble of losing our homes? Hell no! so Why them. Loan them money maybe but they also need to make them start making cars that get better mileage. I say let the Big Oil Companies bail out the Auto manufactures since they have been in bed with them for so long and have been posting record Profits for years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P's Titan Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 I say let the Big Oil Companies bail out the Auto manufactures since they have been in bed with them for so long and have been posting record Profits for years now. I like that idea The Big 3 and the govt. have to look at why there in trouble. Nissan, Toyota and Honda seem to be doing just fine. Why is that? Most Nissan's are built in the US, I think a good chunk of Toyota's are built in the US and I'm not sure about Honda's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97F1504RAD Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 (edited) Customer Service or lack of by the Big 3 plays a huge role in their current issues along with many others. Many of the cars made today by GM and Ford are right on par mileage wise and reliability wise as the jap cars. But it has taken so long to get to that point that many have chosen the jap cars instead of American cars. I personally will not buy a foreign car regardless of where it is built as the money goes to another country. And although you cannot totally escape p[arts and such even for GM,Ford and Chrysler being made in other countries . I try to do what i can. but it is getting harder and harder to find anything made in the USA. And that is a tragedy!! Another problem is we import way more foreign cars than we Export and That is not right. If you want to import cars into this country you will export one from one of the Big three manufactures. It should be a 1 to 1 deal not a 10 to 1 like it is now. We do not export hardly any cars made by the Big three. Hmmmmm wonder why were in such trouble. Edited November 19, 2008 by 97F1504RAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylander Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 It must also be considered that the Big 3's troubles right now also stem from the fact that the financial sector led this nation into a financial collapse and constant drumbeat of bad news has driven consumers into an ultra-conservative mode... Between those who are just hoarding cash and those who have seen all their money disappear, there just aren't a lot of people out there to buy cars and keep the big 3 going. It's really a perfect storm for the automakers... They've truly made some strides in labor agreements and product quality, but it's just a hair too late -- the market dried up around them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Adam's Posted November 19, 2008 Author Share Posted November 19, 2008 I like that idea The Big 3 and the govt. have to look at why there in trouble. Nissan' date=' Toyota and Honda seem to be doing just fine. Why is that? Most Nissan's are built in the US, I think a good chunk of Toyota's are built in the US and I'm not sure about Honda's. The UAW forces the Big 3 to pay twice the wages that the import companies pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegeaney Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 You have to remember there are always 2 sets of signatures on those contracts. They way I see it there are 2 huge problems. 1st is that the General, and others, were tooled up for latge truck and SUV production as those were their highest margin vehicles. They can't turn their production around quick enough to adjust to the market place/demand. 2nd is the prevailing wage for their workers is a bit inflated. In economics there is a guiding principal, called the theory of marginal utility, that dictates the "break even" point on an employee. Basically if a worker is adding $10 in value per hour, but is being pad $20 per hour the old General is losing $10 per hour on that employee alone. If there is to be another bail out I think you will see the us, the taxpayers, with an equity stake in the company and a big seat at the table (so to speak) on how that place is run. If one of the big three were to fail it would be a big hit on an already fragile economy. Hopefully they get something figured out and quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill-V8V Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Want to know how bad it is ? I just got this email !!!! An urgent message to GM suppliers Because our futures are linked, I want you to know that General Motors is doing everything possible to deal with the impact the financial crisis is having on the domestic auto industry. Yet despite our successful efforts to restructure, reduce costs and enhance liquidity, we are facing an uphill battle with the current administration and Congress in securing a bridge loan. That's why we need your help now. Simply put, we need you to join us to let Congress know that a bridge loan to help U.S. automakers also helps strengthen the U.S. economy and preserve millions of American jobs. Despite what you may be hearing, we are not asking Congress for a bailout but rather a loan that will be repaid. The consequences of the domestic auto industry collapsing would far exceed the $25 billion loan needed to bridge the current crisis. According to a recent study by the Center for Automotive Research: • One in 10 American jobs depends on U.S. automakers • Nearly 3 million jobs are at immediate risk • U.S. personal income could be reduced by $150 billion • The tax revenue lost over 3 years would be more than $156 billion Discussions are now underway in Washington, D.C., concerning loans to support U.S. carmakers. I am asking you to support this vital effort by contacting your representatives. Please take a few minutes to call your representatives by dialing 1-866-471-5332. Just state your name and address, and your message will reach your legislators. You can review a script that will help you state your support at gmfactsandfiction.com. Under the "Mobilize Now" section, click on "I'm a Supplier." If you would rather e-mail your representatives, use the link "I'm a Concerned American." Please share this information with friends and family using the link on the site. Thank you for helping keep our economy viable. Sincerely, Troy Clarke President, GM North America Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegeaney Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 What? Do they expect you to buy a 3rd vehicle from them this year?!? You have done your part for them, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitelord Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 I heard today that Buick dropped all sponsorships for the sport of Golf. TV ads, game sponsorships, everything. I wander if Tiger still gets his new car a year??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97F1504RAD Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Maybe they should ask Tiger for a loan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylander Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 I heard today that Buick dropped all sponsorships for the sport of Golf. TV ads, game sponsorships, everything. I think that's a good think. Everyone knows who GM is now; I'd really like to see them cut spending on EVERYTHING (sponsorships, racing, etc.) and get the core business right. I tell you... if the Volt was in showrooms today, I'd have one in my driveway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich427 Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 I like that idea The Big 3 and the govt. have to look at why there in trouble. Nissan' date=' Toyota and Honda seem to be doing just fine. Why is that? Most Nissan's are built in the US, I think a good chunk of Toyota's are built in the US and I'm not sure about Honda's. I have a few opinions on this. I have been buying GM vehicles most of my adult life and believe that they produce as good a quality product as their competitors. On board computers have improved the overall quality and longevity to the automotive industry across the board. So, why have the imports been able to produce vehicles in this country profitably? One, the Japanese and German companies did not go anywhere near Michigan to locate their plants. These companies did not want any part of the UAW. The UAW has put a strangle hold on the big 3 and it is very difficult to untangle. Plus, did you notice that the foreign companies came in and for the most part built new plants. New, efficient, cost effective, non union plants. GM, Ford, and Chrysler are, for the most part, stuck with old, out dated 50+ year old union facilities that are expensive to update or even abandon. Is this something that I think the management of the big 3 has failed to address? Absolutely! Do I think that this same management had the ability to do what the import manufacturers did when they came in? No I don't. Unfortunately, it was two different playing fields to compete in the same marketplace. So, am I happy about the potential loans and investment the government has to make to keep the big 3 afloat? No. But am I concerned that we will be much worst off if they don't? Absofreakinlutely! Take a good luck at your current 401K, or your personal investment portfolio and see how much it is down over the last few months. If we don't help GM, Ford and Chrysler survive we are all in for an even bigger personal hit in our investments. So much so, that some of us would never recover. This is not a pleasant pill to swallow, but one that I think we have to do. Just my opinion. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill-V8V Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 What? Do they expect you to buy a 3rd vehicle from them this year?!? You have done your part for them, that's for sure. I do what I can but I have limits, I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Adam's Posted November 20, 2008 Author Share Posted November 20, 2008 I think I'm changing my mind, again! If they file BK they get a chance to renegotiate all their UAW contracts, which might be a good thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamroper60 Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 I like that idea The Big 3 and the govt. have to look at why there in trouble. Nissan' date=' Toyota and Honda seem to be doing just fine. Why is that? Those companies are not saddled with the same UAW contracts (and if memory serves me, some are not even saddled with UAW workers at all). On top of that, they haven't been here long enough to have a bunch of retirees to support. Those two things right there are big reasons why the Big 3 (do they really still deserve that moniker?) are in trouble. Frankly, IMHO, the unions need to go. In the distant past, they were necessary due to the untenable working conditions some factories put their workers under. Thanks to Federal regulations such as the Fair Labor Standards Act and OSHA, those things are now gone and with them, the real need for unions. When you think about it, the unions have gotten some ridiculous things out of GM, Ford and Chrysler.. As an example, no where else can you draw 90% of your salary while you are laid off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerryC Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Exxon Mobil should bail out the auto industry: 1. They can surely afford it with $15 billion in profit every 3 months 2. GM/Ford/Chrysler make the same products and they all use Exxon Mobil's product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylander Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 I think I'm changing my mind, again! If they file BK they get a chance to renegotiate all their UAW contracts, which might be a good thing! I'm kinda thinking the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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