Honda S2000 issues

[Nevada Smith]

In 2005, I purchased a new Honda S2000 with red paint.

 

Unfortunately I was ignorant about properly washing, drying, and sealing/waxing, so I introduced the usual imperfections into the paint.

 

Now that I am familiar with detailing (having adopted the Junkman's regime), I used my 1995 Toyota Tacoma pickup truck to practice with. While I did encounter a number of issues, I was able to achieve satisfactory results. For an 18 year old daily driver truck that had never been detailed nor properly taken care of, I was able to correct the paint as good as I wanted it. (Which is to say it wasn't perfect; however I did not want to "take it to the next level" -- which likely would have involved wet sanding.)

 

However my S2000 is a different story--I am desirous of restoring the paint to "like new" condition. Yet I am at my wits end because of the following issues:

 

1) What kind of paint is on a 2005 Honda S2000?

 

a. It doesn't appear to have a clear coat finish because all the pads (orange; white; black) end up with red paint in them.

 

b. The paint seems to be very soft--even with a Porter-Cable 7424XP or Griot's Garage Random Orbital set to speed 4, the finish is always marred -- so much so that Adam's Detail Spray won't remove it, nor will 3M Clean and Shine (water + isopropyl alcohol solution), nor will Dawn Ultra dish soap! I tried different speeds but it was always present to some degree.

 

2) Is it usual for the paint on a 2005 Honda S2000 to have "a lot" of orange peel?

 

I ask because every photo/video of S2000s having been detail show a perfectly flat finish--no orange peel that I can see.

 

3) Some panels have turned-out okay (e.g. the trunk) while others are incredibly problematic (e.g, the hood & driver-side panels).

 

4) Are the plastic bumpers painted with the same paint as the car or are they made of plastic colored the same as the car?

 

This S2000 was "Made in Japan" -- yet I wonder: did they jack-up the paint on mine?

 

So here's where I'm at now: after many hours of trying different things such as: changing pads (Hex-Logic orange; white; black; and Adam's 6" white), using different machines (PC; Griot's 6" and 3"); different products (Meguiar's 105 and 205; 3M Ultrafina SE (swirl eliminator)), I've thrown my hands up in surrender and am ready to take it to a professional detailer unless this forum can help me!

 

Some surface "marring" left-over after polishing (visible to right of the spotlight)

 

Two new Adam's 6" white pads after a couple of passes each with Meguiar's 205. N.B.: red clumps of polish/paint residue on paper after just two passes on speed 4! Temperature/humidity was about 60F/20% in the garage.

 

 

Orange peel on passenger side:

 

 

Close-up of orange peel and a new Adam's 6" white pad after two passes with Meguiar's 205:

 

Edited November 4, 2013 by Nevada Smith

[Marylander]

I can't offer too to much help re: other s2000s, but I'm wondering if your car was ever re-sprayed after some body work?

[Nevada Smith]

I can't offer too to much help re: other s2000s, but I'm wondering if your car was ever re-sprayed after some body work?

It's the original paint. When I purchased the car it still had the protective film on the panels -- they had to take it off so I could test drive it.

 

ETA: Although a couple of days elapsed before I got delivery. Hmm...

Edited October 31, 2013 by Nevada Smith

[BKazzle]

Milano Red? It's single stage.

 

 

M105 is too aggressive IMO for your car. M205 sometimes doesn't finish down nicely on soft paints. I prefer 'DAT' polishes on soft paints; M105 and M205 are 'SMAT'.

 

Haven't used the 3M you are talking about; however I see you have their 'fine machine polish'. FMP should finish nicely on Honda SS paint, so this could be a technique thing.

 

M205 coupled with FMP should spit out good results on this paint.

 

*quick response...sorry gotta sleep now

[davidg]

Did you clay the car before starting?

 

Post up on S2ki and see if your car should be cleared. Wash and Wax section. I touched up a little scuff on a NFR 2 weeks ago and got no transfer. It was a salvage car though, so not sure what's been done to the paint in a body shop. My SSM is defiantly cleared.

 

I'll try and get some photos of my orange peel tomorrow before work.

 

105 is too much for the S, swirl and haze remover does well when you finish with fine machine, but before Adams I got decent results using XMT fine swirl remover (very similar cut to fine machine polish).

 

Bumpers are painted.

 

Was the marring before or after your finishing polish?

 

Phil at Detailers Domain is a sponsor over on the S2k site and very friendly. He's also an Adams dealer.

 

If you commission a detailer make sure he has a paint thickness gauge.

 

 

s2k brother. If you have any issues let me know. I've been around them the past 6+ years, defiantly have a passion for these vehicles.

Edited October 31, 2013 by davidg

[Nevada Smith]

Did you clay the car before starting?

 

Post up on S2ki and see if your car should be cleared. Wash and Wax section. I touched up a little scuff on a NFR 2 weeks ago and got no transfer. It was a salvage car though, so not sure what's been done to the paint in a body shop. My SSM is defiantly cleared.

 

I'll try and get some photos of my orange peel tomorrow before work.

 

105 is too much for the S, swirl and haze remover does well when you finish with fine machine, but before Adams I got decent results using XMT fine swirl remover (very similar cut to fine machine polish).

 

Bumpers are painted.

 

Was the marring before or after your finishing polish?

 

Phil at Detailers Domain is a sponsor over on the S2k site and very friendly. He's also an Adams dealer.

 

If you commission a detailer make sure he has a paint thickness gauge.

 

 

s2k brother. If you have any issues let me know. I've been around them the past 6+ years, defiantly have a passion for these vehicles.

 

1. Yes, I clayed before starting.

 

2. I will take your advice and post on S2Ki in a day or two if necessary -- But first I want to let this thread run its course here.

 

3. The marring was happening with M105 and M205. I never got to the point where I could use Adam's Fine Machine Polish (discontinued BTW) because I was going in circles changing pads, product, machines, speed setting, technique, and microfiber towels. (Lesson learned: I'll never get myself into a rut like this again!)

 

4. Paint thickness gauge; roger that!

 

And thank you for the welcome!

[Nevada Smith]

Milano Red? It's single stage.

 

 

M105 is too aggressive IMO for your car. M205 sometimes doesn't finish down nicely on soft paints. I prefer 'DAT' polishes on soft paints; M105 and M205 are 'SMAT'.

 

Haven't used the 3M you are talking about; however I see you have their 'fine machine polish'. FMP should finish nicely on Honda SS paint, so this could be a technique thing.

 

M205 coupled with FMP should spit out good results on this paint.

 

*quick response...sorry gotta sleep now

 

Both you and "davidg" agree M105 is too aggressive, so I won't be using it on this car ever again!

 

I like your suggestion for using M205 followed by Fine Machine Polish (discontinued BTW). I will try it tomorrow and post back. I suspect I'm going to have to make multiple applications to get rid of the damage caused by M105.

 

This single stage paint is very labor intensive, and expensive! I'm going through pads like crazy, and spending lots of time washing up afterward. (I can't get all the "red" out of the pads though.)

 

P.S.

 

What do "DAT" and "SMAT" mean?

[Baron_Von_Awesome]

What do "DAT" and "SMAT" mean?

DAT: Diminishing Abrasive Technology (i.e Adam's, Scholl Concepts, Menzerna)  These polishes have abrasives that diminish into smaller, finer, more numerous chunks the more they are worked until they ultimately "break down".  If you don't work these polishes long enough it will result in surface hazing.

 

SMAT: Super Micro Abrasive Technology (i.e Megs 105/205, Optimum Polishes)  These polishes have abrasives that do not break down into smaller particulate.  Once you get their technique down, they can cut and finish fast & incredibly well!

Edited October 31, 2013 by Baron_Von_Awesome

[Nevada Smith]

Milano Red? It's single stage.

 

It is the New Formula Red (R-510).

 

The "other" red is Monza Red Pearl (R-508P)

[simplife]

This link might be helpful.

 

 

 

http://www.ammonyc.com/detailing/how-to-determine-hard-vs-soft-paint-acura-nsx/

[BKazzle]

It is the New Formula Red (R-510).

 

The "other" red is Monza Red Pearl (R-508P)

Oh ok...thought my buddy's S2k was Milano Red. Anyways, now I can see your pics (phone wasn't loading them last night. That certainly is single stage.

 

M105 is tricky to use and I dislike it a lot compared to other "compounds" out there. (I don't like to use the word compound; I prefer the word polish no matter how aggressive it is or isn't). There are tricks to using 105 but this is a Adam's forum, so I won't get into that.

 

I'm guessing that using m205 will correct nearly everything, but may leave some marring behind because of the type of polish it is. This is where a finishing DAT polish will come into place. (Adams FMP old and new)

 

The FMP should correct any marring left behind and create a great finish.

 

Also consider using their red pad with FMP.

 

Were you wiping off M105 before going onto M205?

 

Also, technique could play a role in all of this...so maybe consider that as well.

Edited October 31, 2013 by BKazzle

[Nevada Smith]

This link might be helpful.

http://www.ammonyc.com/detailing/how-to-determine-hard-vs-soft-paint-acura-nsx/

 

Yes, it was. Thank you! (I laughed at the unexpected pun, "Don't fall asleep at the wheel" while he was circumstantially holding a Rupes.)

[Nevada Smith]

Oh ok...thought my buddy's S2k was Milano Red. Anyways, now I can see your pics (phone wasn't loading them last night. That certainly is single stage.

 

M105 is tricky to use and I dislike it a lot compared to other "compounds" out there. (I don't like to use the word compound; I prefer the word polish no matter how aggressive it is or isn't). There are tricks to using 105 but this is a Adam's forum, so I won't get into that.

 

I'm guessing that using m205 will correct nearly everything, but may leave some marring behind because of the type of polish it is. This is where a finishing DAT polish will come into place. (Adams FMP old and new)

 

The FMP should correct any marring left behind and create a great finish.

 

Also consider using their red pad with FMP.

 

Were you wiping off M105 before going onto M205?

 

Also, technique could play a role in all of this...so maybe consider that as well.

 

1. I would be thankful if you would PM re: tricks to using M105 -- even if it's just a URL or a quick bullet-point list, I'll gladly accept whatever you have time for.

 

2. Yes, I was removing the M105 before applying M205 -- I had too; it was leaving a noticeable mess behind. I was using a MF towel though, not IPA+H2O (although I did try the later).

 

3. Ah, technique. As the Junkman says, "Technique trumps product every time." (Amen, brother.) Unfortunately I can't afford to make any more mistakes on my S2000.

 

BKazzle, I did a test section following your suggestion (M205 + Adam's FMP) and the results were good. I can also see that I am going to have to do multiple applications of the M205 to remove all of the damage from the M105. (I also ordered two more bottles of FMP since it's on CLOSEOUT sale for $6.95. I'll call Adam's and see if they can change my order to add a couple of red pads.)

 

And "Thank you!" for your help!

[BKazzle]

1. I would be thankful if you would PM re: tricks to using M105 -- even if it's just a URL or a quick bullet-point list, I'll gladly accept whatever you have time for.

 

2. Yes, I was removing the M105 before applying M205 -- I had too; it was leaving a noticeable mess behind. I was using a MF towel though, not IPA+H2O (although I did try the later).

 

3. Ah, technique. As the Junkman says, "Technique trumps product every time." (Amen, brother.) Unfortunately I can't afford to make any more mistakes on my S2000.

 

BKazzle, I did a test section following your suggestion (M205 + Adam's FMP) and the results were good. I can also see that I am going to have to do multiple applications of the M205 to remove all of the damage from the M105. (I also ordered two more bottles of FMP since it's on CLOSEOUT sale for $6.95. I'll call Adam's and see if they can change my order to add a couple of red pads.)

 

And "Thank you!" for your help!

 

2. The reason I asked: M105-205 are not the same as Adam's 2-step. You NEED to wipe them off after each step since the abrasives don't break down. The reason you will see Adam's videos talking about not wiping them off after each step is because you work the DAT polish until it completely breaks down. This is not the case with SMAT (M105-205).

 

3. Well sometimes...technique is very important, but it depends on what type of product (ex: glass cleaner, polishes, shampoos, etc...), and of course the company that sells it.

 

I like their fine machine polish a lot and I think it finishes very well on soft paints. Supposedly their NEW 'Finishing Polish' is even better and has a longer work time, but I haven't used it yet.

 

The reason I suggested a red pad is sometimes you HAVE to mix and match pads/polishes to get a desired result. You may even want to consider using M205 on a glaze/sealant pad (RED) and see what kind of results you get.

 

Typically single stage paints are thin, so going forward you need to be cautious or find someone with a paint depth gauge/buy one. (can be expensive)

[LFairbanks]

4) Are the plastic bumpers painted with the same paint as the car or are they made of plastic colored the same as the car?

 

 

Your bumper is painted to match the car.  The plastic isn't colored to match.

[davidg]

It's not single stage.

[07RS4]

It's not single stage.

 

If it's not single stage, then what is it?  Single stage dries to a glossy finish and doesn't require a clear coat (aka, the red on the pads), two stage paint has a clear coat (ie. no red on pads)...

 

Also...I'm not a mod, but....links to other products and over the top discussion of other products is against forum rules...just sayin'....Just PM each other...

[LFairbanks]

What is the paint code in the door?

[07RS4]

Dave might be correct...but with no explenation...one is left to wonder

 

A 30 second search of a S2000 forum....this seemed to be the consensus on THIS red....

 

Let's put this one to rest once and for all.

I found the 2003 Factory Honda/Acura Color charts.

Paint Code------Color Description--------Touch-Up Paint
R-510-------------New Formula Red *-----08703-r510AA


* A small amount of color is mixed in the clear coat and applied over the color coat.


http://www.s2kcaroli...pdf/a02-072.pdf

[LFairbanks]

I found the same thing Dave.  Was trying to find verification from another source.

Edited November 1, 2013 by LFairbanks

[Nevada Smith]

What is the paint code in the door?

Confirmed by sticker on passenger side: R-510 (aka New Formula Red)

[07RS4]

There you have it...thanks for the confirmation.

[LFairbanks]

                                       

R–510

New Formula Red2

Insight, S2000

 

The number following the paint description is the paint process used during the vehicle manufacture.
1: Two-stage process. Clear coat is applied over the color coat.
2: Two-stage process. A small amount of color is mixed in the clear coat and applied over the color coat. 

 

 

​Found it.  Notice the number 2 at the end of "red"  it is explained by the number 2 at the bottom.  It didn't show the way I wanted it, but all the info is there.

 

I got the above information from a pdf that I downloaded to view.  If I have time and remember I will try to dig up a link to it your interested.

Edited November 1, 2013 by LFairbanks

[davidg]

I've written out about 10 replies at various times to this thread. I want to be as friendly and helpful as possible to a fellow S owner, but I honestly didn't believe me quoting and posting a few links, ect.  would be looked at very closely. Better to leave mystery and wonder, inspiration; if you will, for the OP or others to look it up and get a general conscientious to back up or depute my finding. I understand the SS thought, and I was truly doubting my knowledge of these vehicles after seeing the pads. I thought the clear might have been toast, but I let my curiosity in before work time and just did a quick search when I saw the post about SS being thin. I didn't want to see anyone ruin their paint. However, I'm wondering if the tri-color is making some of the weird marring happen that is photographed. Possibly not a uniform spray of tint in the clear?

 

 

Off topic, it appears the NSX is also a tri-color vehicle. Not a single stage. Kinda makes me sad to know one of my favorite youtubers was wrong.

 

PS. I've still got getting my orange peel photo in the back of my mind. I've had a customer car the past few days and mine is too dirty to get a decent photo of the paint up close. I work late tomorrow, but I still have a little left on the jeep I've got here visiting.

[BKazzle]

....I got the above information from a pdf that I downloaded to view. If I have time and remember I will try to dig up a link to it your interested.

 

This what you were looking at? http://downloads.hondatech.info/Auto/Service%20Bulletin/S2000/a02-072.pdf

 

 

Very interesting...

 

Usually you don't get that much paint transfer from tinted clear coats. I guess it could depend on manufacturer and process, but that's over my head.

Edited November 1, 2013 by BKazzle

[IrishCurse]

Lets also remind him that Paint Finishing Polish will serve his finishing purposes just as well or bettter that FMP and is widely available.  It seems we've been steering him solely to FMP.