Anyone went from Flex to Rupes?

[Z06Seal]

Hey guys,

 

I bought a Flex 3401 couple years back because I believed it was the better choice for me over the PC and also the cyclo. I liked the power it had over the other two in case I had to do heavier correcting on paint. Mind you I'm a personal user (I don't detail for $$) and just do my own cars usually which most of them are new cars... Maybe it was overkill, but I'm happy I got the top dog.

 

Well fast forward to now and I know adam's is selling the Rupes bigfoot series (I thought they were selling 15 and 21, but it seems it's only 15). From what I can tell in my research, the rupes is not a heavy cutter like the flex (not forced rotation) but covers almost twice the ground the flex does (8 vs 15 in this case) or triple with the 21.

 

Does this mean you can do a section of a panel twice as fast just because you are covering that much more ground?

 

and did you move from the Flex to rupes bigfoot for this particular reason? if so why? I'd like to know...

 

I'm thinking about selling my flex and getting a rupes, but I'm just not sure if it's worth the hassle of me trying to sell it then adding 100 or more bucks to get a rupes. I don't polish much so none of my stuff gets used often, so perhaps it's not really waste of my time or money. I may polish 2-3 cars a year at most. I honestly use them more for putting on LPS on my cars at about twice a year. I could use a PC for that, but I really don't like that machine.

 

I also don't like the 2 head design of cyclo so I'm not very interested in that (not to mention I'd need all new pads lol)

 

Thanks!

[Junior]

Emir,

 

The main benefit you would see is the smoothness of the Rupes. As far as speed of correction, I think they are both on fairly common ground. The slight edge might go to the Flex. I have both and I like both. I like using the Rupes when I am not working on a car that is in bad shape. It barely has any vibration and will not walk you across a panel like the Flex will! The only other thing the Rupes might have a slight edge in is finishing but I am just basing that on things I've read not not an actual comparison of my results.

 

All that said, I don't think there's anything major for you to gain here unless you have trouble with the Flex or do not like the difficulty of control. It would be hard for me to pick one though if I could only have one. They are both great polishers. Flex is sort of like Dirty Harry, he will knock it out quick, but the process can be violent. Where the Rupes is like James Bond. A little smoother and more refined, but able to take on just about anything just the same.

 

Just on a side note- You said you would have to get new pads for the Cyclo, but you still would for the Rupes if you are using 7 inch pads with your 3401 VRG.

[Kingsford]

I used to just use a Flex for everything. Then I bought a Rupes Duetto and I like it much more than the Flex. Much easier to control and what not. I still use the Flex but not nearly as often. I only reach for the Flex when I'm working a really stubborn scratch or etching that is giving me problems.

[Z06Seal]

Thanks guys. I have some of the older 7 inch pads along with the new smaller 6 and 5.5 pads as they don't make the 7 anymore afaik.

 

I wish I could test one out on the new benz that I just got. The car is a metallic black and has lots of light swirl marks over 6 years of car washing with a brush. I know the flex will do the job, but I'm curious how a rupes would do.

 

I like the flex, but like you guys said, it's a bit violent. no finesse to it lol. I guess for the amount of cars I do a year (only a couple) it's not that big of a deal. if I did 1-2 cars a week, I would probably have all the polishers sold to mankind lol.

 

I have a PC as well (the harbor freight version) that I use a 4" pad with to get the smaller spots like back of trunks etc.

 

Is there that much of a difference between 15 and 21? (2 vs 3 times coverage if I'm right?) also how about Mark 2? From what I read, it's ripping the pads off on higher speeds, so you have to run it at slower speeds (mark 1 speeds) to have your pads last anyways?

Edited June 9, 2016 by Z06Seal

[07r/t]

I would go with the 15 unless you are doing alot of bigger panels. I have the 15 and it fits the bill for my Charger, Ram Truck and wifes Durango. When i was deciding between the two machines, i figured the 21 was going to be more then i needed, so i got the 15 and the mini and am very happy with them both. Maybe for my truck, the 21 would help speed up the process but to me, its no race. 

[Junior]

The 21 does have near 50 percent more throw, but as you mentioned you aren't doing a lot of detailing so I doubt it would be of too much benefit to pay more for iit where time isn't money. I have the legacy (mark 1) Rupes 15. Haven't had a problem with pads but you're right the new version seems to have a lot more power. I think I saw where they are recommending to run on speed 4 to keep from over stressing the pads. These machines are SERIOUS!!!!!

[Z06Seal]

For Mark 1, the price difference between 15 and 21 is really small (10-20 bucks) so it's def not a deal breaker.

 

But are adam's pads big enough to fit them? Maybe that's why they're not selling the 21 here?

 

and I just realized Dylan went to Rupes! (hopefully it's not a sore subject lol) I was wondering why he hasn't been making any videos! lol

[mc2hill]

Hey Emir, If you decide to change to the Rupes go with the Mark II vs. the Mark I - it has 40% more power.  I have the 15 Mk II and really like it.  I used the Mk I version when it came out and it was just ok, but the Mk II has a lot more power, which means little to no stalling in curved panels.  There is a learning curve with the Rupes, but it is really just forcing you to use better form (keeping the pad flat and level to the service all the time).

[Z06Seal]

Thanks Mike,

 

From what I'm reading though, you have to use the Mk2 on lower power because it's ripping the foams apart at higher settings...

[Z06Seal]

Why did adam's stop carrying the flex?

[The Guz]

If you read all those posts about folks tearing up pads is because they are not using proper technique and using too much speed.  The Mark II has more power and does not need to be used at speed 5 or 6. 

 

The other issue is that there is too much downward pressure being used with the tool.  It doesn't need it.  The weight of the machine is all that is needed. 

 

The other issue is that some polishes contain solvents that will eat the pads.  This pertains to Rupes pads. 

 

The Mark II is a great machine.  People are quick to freak out when they are the ones not using it correctly. 

[Z06Seal]

If you read all those posts about folks tearing up pads is because they are not using proper technique and using too much speed.  The Mark II has more power and does not need to be used at speed 5 or 6. 

 

The other issue is that there is too much downward pressure being used with the tool.  It doesn't need it.  The weight of the machine is all that is needed. 

 

The other issue is that some polishes contain solvents that will eat the pads.  This pertains to Rupes pads. 

 

The Mark II is a great machine.  People are quick to freak out when they are the ones not using it correctly. 

 

Why have a 5 or 6 setting if it doesn't need to be used at that? I might get as well get a Mk 1 and run at 5-6 which would equate to me running a mk2 at 3-4 I guess? lol

Edited June 10, 2016 by Z06Seal

[The Guz]

The biggest complaint on the MK I was that it would stall on curves.  Rupes added more power as people were complaining about that.  Now people are complaining that it has too much power smh. 

[vobro]

The 15 MK2 is a great machine, more power and it's true that it corrects really well at 3-4. Why does this matter? Less heat, less control issues and much easier on the old ears! You said in the OP that the Flex can be "violent", well I think the MK2 is a much better user experience than the MK1 spinning at full bore.

The Flex is a great machine but it has its own drawbacks just like every other tool but it's a monster when it comes to correcting paint and Mercedes Benz has some blacks that are really hard paint. IMO you can't go wrong with either machine.

[Ricky Bobby]

Why have a 5 or 6 setting if it doesn't need to be used at that? I might get as well get a Mk 1 and run at 5-6 which would equate to me running a mk2 at 3-4 I guess? lol

It CAN be run at speed 5-6 the point is it doesn't NEED to be on the MK2 to keep heat down and save pad life.

 

The Mark 2 is more efficient on lower speeds making more power than the Mark 1 at its highest speed.

 

If you had a Ferrari it can go 180 mph do you actually drive it that fast or need to? Nope.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Ricky Bobby

[Dylan@RUPES]

<stretches>

<cracks knuckles>

<prepares to type>

 

 

From what I can tell in my research, the rupes is not a heavy cutter like the flex (not forced rotation) but covers almost twice the ground the flex does (8 vs 15 in this case) or triple with the 21.

 

 

Not at all true - pairing the BigFoot polishers up with the right pad/polish combo and its perfectly capable of ripping out sanding marks up to 1500 on most paints. The only real advantage a forced rotation machine is going to give you is no stall on deep curves or contours, but thats a issue we addressed with the mark II. In terms of correcting power I'd happily race anyone heads up on a panel Flex v. BigFoot and show that there is virtually no difference in the correction speed/capability. There are a multitude of advantages to a free spinning random orbital polisher, but we can get more into that later in this discussion.

 

 

Does this mean you can do a section of a panel twice as fast just because you are covering that much more ground?

 

Not necessarily - orbit size has more to do with distance traveled and how that correlates to correcting power, not necessarily area covered. It does 'sweep' a wider area though, so there is that added benefit of coverage, but its not the primary advantage of the system.

 

 

 

Is there that much of a difference between 15 and 21? (2 vs 3 times coverage if I'm right?)

 

The 15 is intended as a detailing tool, the 21 is intended more in body shops and applications where you're focused on sanding marks all day. In terms of correcting power the 15 and 21 are very close - while the 21 does have the larger orbit (more distance traveled in the same amount of time) the 15 makes up the gap in a higher top speed - and as I've covered in videos before the smaller pad will increase cutting power.

The answer to 'what tool should I get' is actually on the tool itself - the LHR15's have the word "DETAILING" printed in gold script right on the head. The LHR21's do not.

This is not to say you can't/shouldn't use the 21 for detailing, just that the 15 in our 'official factory opinion' is the better detailing tool.

 

 

also how about Mark 2? From what I read, it's ripping the pads off on higher speeds, so you have to run it at slower speeds (mark 1 speeds) to have your pads last anyways?

 

The lateral stresses a large orbit tools put on foam pads is intense... imagine what happens as a pad is smashed between paint and a plate and is then thrust back and forth 250% of the distance any of your current tools? Even with the original version you could very quickly shorten pad life with bad technique and the incorrect type of foam will also have issues.

 

Our factory foams are a rigid material designed to maximize energy transfer and minimize lateral deflection.

We recommend the Mark II tools to run in the middle speed ranges (3-4) which is what they're optimized for, but when you encounter a surface with a deep curve/contour or a scratch in an isolated area you simply ramp up to max speed for that zone and then slow back down for the regular work. Its really quite logical b/c traditionally you run all tools at max speed, but what happens when that isn't enough? You can't go to speed 7 or 8... this makes the tool more versatile.

 

For Mark 1, the price difference between 15 and 21 is really small (10-20 bucks) so it's def not a deal breaker.

 

I would steer you towards the Mark II tools if you're trying to replace your flex - the increased power is going to give you a tool that is more in line with what you're used to for correcting power.

 

 

and I just realized Dylan went to Rupes! (hopefully it's not a sore subject lol) I was wondering why he hasn't been making any videos! lol

 

It'll be a year ago in August. No hard feelings on this side. I love this new position and I get to work along side and with some of the most talented detailers and brilliant minds in our industry. Truly a dream job. Not to mention the travel benefits of working for an Italian based company - I leave for Rome at the end of the month

 

Thanks Mike,

 

From what I'm reading though, you have to use the Mk2 on lower power because it's ripping the foams apart at higher settings...

 

Again - by design and also a large percentage of user error.

 

If you read all those posts about folks tearing up pads is because they are not using proper technique and using too much speed.  The Mark II has more power and does not need to be used at speed 5 or 6. 

 

The other issue is that there is too much downward pressure being used with the tool.  It doesn't need it.  The weight of the machine is all that is needed. 

 

The other issue is that some polishes contain solvents that will eat the pads.  This pertains to Rupes pads. 

 

The Mark II is a great machine.  People are quick to freak out when they are the ones not using it correctly. 

 

Bingo! We still have a lot of education to get into the market on how to properly use the tools - while the US is very active in terms of detailing we also have a lot of ham-fisted operators who apply "porter cable" style technique to a tool that demands a completely different approach.

 

Why have a 5 or 6 setting if it doesn't need to be used at that? I might get as well get a Mk 1 and run at 5-6 which would equate to me running a mk2 at 3-4 I guess? lol

 

As explained above - and I'll add the analogy to explain your question: 

Why have a car capable of going 160mph if it doesn't need to be used at that? You might as well get a 2 cylinder car that maxes out at 60mph.

 

Just like the need to have more hp in a car to get up to freeway speed or passing speed its necessary to have a tool that operates at the mid-point as 'normal' and then has higher speeds when they're needed.

As I touched on above - what do you do now when the max speed on your polisher isn't enough? You can't turn the dial to 7. You end up trying more aggressive pads and compounds or more passes. What if all you needed to do was ramp up the speed to fix that spot then you could (without even shutting the machine off) slow back down to normal speed and continue with the average work? Thats the concept - its passing slow moving cars on the highway. Punching it to get around them and then going back to cruising speed.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Dylan@RUPES

[mc2hill]

Excellent information Dylan!

 

We recommend the Mark II tools to run in the middle speed ranges (3-4) which is what they're optimized for, but when you encounter a surface with a deep curve/contour or a scratch in an isolated area you simply ramp up to max speed for that zone and then slow back down for the regular work. Its really quite logical b/c traditionally you run all tools at max speed, but what happens when that isn't enough? You can't go to speed 7 or 8... this makes the tool more versatile.

 

 

All my tools go to "11"....

 

 

 

....Sorry, could not resist! 

[Ricky Bobby]

Excellent post DvK as always!  Jealous of that Rome trip! - with the Rupes machines its almost like talking about magazine capacity on firearms - People will say you don't "need" 15 rounds in a pistol magazine to get the job done in a self defense scenario, a regular revolver used to get the job done with 6 for most law enforcement agencies - sure, but if you use up those 6 bullets wouldn't it be nice to have extras (Read: Speed/Power with the Rupes) ready to go? 

[marquez93]

The 15 is intended as a detailing tool, the 21 is intended more in body shops and applications where you're focused on sanding marks all day. In terms of correcting power the 15 and 21 are very close - while the 21 does have the larger orbit (more distance traveled in the same amount of time) the 15 makes up the gap in a higher top speed - and as I've covered in videos before the smaller pad will increase cutting power.

 

The answer to 'what tool should I get' is actually on the tool itself - the LHR15's have the word "DETAILING" printed in gold script right on the head. The LHR21's do not.

 

This is not to say you can't/shouldn't use the 21 for detailing, just that the 15 in our 'official factory opinion' is the better detailing tool.

Interesting. All of the talk about Rupes machines around here and this is the first time I've ever heard this. I assumed they were both intended for detailing. I love my mk1 15, so no reason to go to a 21 anyway.

[Dylan@RUPES]

Interesting. All of the talk about Rupes machines around here and this is the first time I've ever heard this. I assumed they were both intended for detailing. I love my mk1 15, so no reason to go to a 21 anyway.

 

The US in an anomaly - in the rest of the world detailers adopted the LHR15 tools, but because we're America and bigger is always better we jumped on the 21 without ever asking why. The tide has turned and thanks to the work of our incredible team here, traveling the country and educating people at BigFoot Seminars detailers are starting to understand the advantages of the 15 for their purposes.

 

The 21 is still an awesome tool and still very effective for detailing, but if you ask anyone on our team what polisher they reach for first to correct a car the 15 the preferred tool.

[BrianT]

Dylan, as always your knowledge is awesome!! Thank you!!

[Z06Seal]

Great explanation. Thanks!

 

Perhaps I need to look for a Mk II 15 and just add it to my arsenal. I'll give it some thought. Doing so few cars every year, it's a big investment.

 

Thanks!

[AvsBest]

I've been following this thread too. I think if someone could do 50/50 shot of flex vs rupes 15 it would help a few people to visualize the difference, if any.

 

As much as I love my flex, you need to hang on to it like to your wife in bed bath and beyond

[mc2hill]

I've been following this thread too. I think if someone could do 50/50 shot of flex vs rupes 15 it would help a few people to visualize the difference, if any.

 

 

I am not sure this would be too helpful.  Both will correct the same in the end, they just get there a little differently - The Rupes uses the long throw to accomplish what the Flex does with the forced rotation.  Both could probably produce about the same results in one pass.

[Junior]

Emir if you did have both I bet you would stop using the Flex unless the car was really hammered. At least that's how I am. I only reach for the Flex when I know a car needs a lot of help.

[Dylan@RUPES]

 I think if someone could do 50/50 shot of flex vs rupes 15 it would help a few people to visualize the difference, if any.

 

 

I am not sure this would be too helpful.  Both will correct the same in the end, they just get there a little differently - The Rupes uses the long throw to accomplish what the Flex does with the forced rotation.  Both could probably produce about the same results in one pass.

 

Michael is correct - this wouldn't net you much. You'd be hard pressed to see a difference in correcting power... where the BigFoot system has a distinct advantage is in operator comfort and finishing ability.

 

OPERATOR COMFORT/HEALTH is an area I'm increasingly aware of and trying to draw attention to for the professional arena. My joints have the smooth movement of a rusty gate hinge (and some of the same sounds) as a result of using tools for over a decade that simply ignored operator health. My contemporaries are falling by the wayside with various health issues from all the years of ignoring their bodies as part of detailing, and what good is a detailer who can't hold a polisher anymore? The need to reduce operator fatigue and the physical effects of abusive polishers is real, but we're only really 10 years in on orbital mainstream so we haven't realized it yet. The BigFoot system has a distinct advantage in the low vibration and operator comfort areas - previously the only tool that could claim lower vibration was the Cyclo, which is now part of the RUPES corporate family

 

FINISH QUALITY is another thing to consider. Does you no good to be able to mow down defects if all you have to do is additional steps to clean up the trash left behind right? The movement type of a dual action RANDOM orbital polisher unequivocally has better finishing potential than gear driven, its demonstrable.So if we can match up on correction power, but finish cleaner is there a debate on which is superior? Its extremely hard to quantify this level b/c on camera the subtleties in finish quality are very hard to show... but in person a milky or hazy finish is easier to see. This doesn't call into question the correcting power of a gear driven tool... it has advantages there, but it also has a fixed number of orbits per revolution by design - this in an of itself creates finishing issues. Theres also the debate of the fact that the class leader in that category spins the wrong way, but thats another item for another time.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Dylan@RUPES